Can someone tell me how "phasing" works?

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busted kitty

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I'm a rookie to miking drums. Can someone explain how phasing works and how I can best set things up to deal with it? I'm miking a kit with one kick, snare, two rack toms and a floor tom. One hat, ride, and one crash.

I have a 57 for the snare, a couple of Yamaha dymanic mics for toms, a Senheisser 241 for the kick, 2 AKG C1000 for overheads, and a Rode NT1000 for a room mic.

Any suggestions?
 
If you have the Sennheiser inside the kick, there's a very good chance that it'll be 180 degrees out of phase with the rest of the kit. One way to check on phase problems with multi mic setups is to listen to the kit in mono. listen for flanging kind of sounds from the cymbals, weird tubey sounds. Move the overhead mics around
and listen for these things.
 
First of all, I know nothing. Nada, zilch, squat.

But I've received great advice about phase on another board, and I'll also share an observation or two.

Yes, checking in mono and listening for weird phase-iness are both good ways to go. Also, a main concern in this area is making sure that the low end remains full after bringing in each mic. IOW, when listening to each track separately, does the kick still kick after you bring in the rest of the mics?

One of the advantages of using a DAW is that you can actually SEE what's happening and where. You can also nudge (move0 each track in millisecond increments (or less/more, backwards or forwards in time), and you will really hear the effects of phase when you do this. That's what it comes down to in my mind. Are the waveforms grooving together or fighting eachother? If one wave is zigging and the wave from the same source on another mic/track is zagging, they might cancel eachother out, or change the tone.

You can even use phasing to your advantage. It will exaggerate or attenuate certain frequencies and can change the tone of whatever you're recording for better/worse.

Listen to a 'Phaser' effect unit. It's essentially emulating what happens when two signals move in and out of phase. When you move a microphone while tracking, what you're doing is changing the amount of time it takes for the sound of the source to hit the mic. We're talking teeny tiny increments of time here, obviously, that's why repositioning the mic by an inch will make a big difference.
 
C'mon...

Question; >I'm a rookie to miking drums. Can someone explain how phasing works and how I can best set things up to deal with it?<

A; >Yeah, ditch the AKG C1000's and use thesehttp://www.8thstreet.com/Product.as...ory=Microphones for overheads. No, really, I'm serious.<

Michael, how does this answer his phase question? I've seen you post some helpful stuff, this is not one of those times.

Busted Kitty, check out the book Modern Recording Techniques by David Miles Huber for a good introduction to mic'ing technique and phase correlation. I've seen this book on www.amazon.com and www.barnesandnoble.com

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

"Jazz, pfffft...They just make it up as they go along."
-Homer Simpson-
 
I don't agree with that anyway. I only have one C1000, but used it as a single overhead for a long time before getting a couple ECMs. If I had two C1000s, I'd probably use those.

As far as phase issues go, I usually just try to make sure that any mics picking up the same signal are of equal distance to that signal.
 
Search the site for the word phase and you will get loads of info.

A short answer for you is to sum up your drum tracks in mono and simply lisen...if you hear- hollow, swishing, flanging, thin weird sounds, lower level, then you probably have a phase problem.

If you cant sum to mono on your mixer or what ever you use, pan the tracks center and listen......simple as that........

To fix the problem reposition your mics or....... if you intend to play back on stereo only then a hard pan of OH's canl help.
Also reversing the phase can help and last - the 3-1 rule (search the site).
 
I like the Oktava MC-012's. Not $35, but still a bargain for what you get.

As far as dealing with phase issues when recording drums, just forget about it. You will have them no matter what, so don't worry about what you can't control.

If anyone listens to it in mono and complains, just tell them you always purposely use a phaser on your drums to make them sound cool and "phasey." :)
 
Tom, my post was only slightly off topic. Granted the question was about phasing, but he also mentioned the mics he would be using. Being the owner of an AKG C1000, and knowing its incredible limitations, and having nothing but utter disdain for this mic, I couldn't help myself.
 
yeah...

Michael, I know, sometimes it's hard to resist. I normally wouldn't have called you out on it but, your post was like the second one. Plus I hadn't had my coffee yet.:D

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

"Jazz, pfffft...They just make it up as they go along."
-Homer Simpson-
 
Phasing works because sound waves, like all waves, will either reinforce or cancel each other out depending on whether individual waves meet at their "peaks" or "troughs" or at opposite points.

In other words, if two waves meet and one waveform is at its peak and the other is at its trough, the waves will cancel out since their values from baseline will be equal but opposite polarity.

If the waveforms are at the same point -- either peak or trough -- when they meet they will re-inforce and actually produce a frequency "bump".

Waves at various points of waveform will re-inforce and cancel each other to a greater or lesser extent and this is part of what makes up the "sound" of a room, for instance.

If two microphones are positioned such that waves are hitting each mike at opposite polarity -- ie, they're out of phase -- they will cancel when they are summed to mono.

Just make sure your mics are at least three times as far apart from each other as they are from the sound source and you'll be OK.

Forgive me if you already have discovered this. I jumped in a little late after the humourous banter started. Just trying to be helpful.
 
I dunno about using the ECM8000s as overheads over the C1000s. If it was someone saying "hey...i need drum overheads..what should I get"...I can see 8000s, totally. But, in this case - telling him to ditch the C1000s? No way.

I use Rode NT3s...which are pretty similar to C1000s, no way would I trade for the ECM8ks. Though, I am planning on getting a pair eventually...probably.

Thats just me.
 
Why does everybody diss the Akg c100s mics? what's wrong with them? Mine work fine. I actually prefer them over using 2 AT4033 as overheards because I think they have a tighter cardiod pattern which works well in the relatively small room (with 7 1/2 foot ceiling) I record in.

Maybe you guys spilled some coffee on your C1000s or maybe they've been exposed to smoke too much.

I see people favoring mics on here that cost way less than the C1000s. If the C1000s was really that bad of a mic, they would either lower the price (i believe it costs $199) or make improvements to it.

Can somebody clarify why the C1000s is such a bad mic?
 
fenix said:


Can somebody clarify why the C1000s is such a bad mic?

Try..tinny, harsh, metallic sounding...I could go on.
 
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