Best way to record drums with only 4 inputs?

[miroslav]

The most annoying problem we encountered was the LDC would always pick up waaaay too much of the cymbals, and it sounded awful. I know our drummer doesn't have the best sounding cymbals on earth, but they don't sound annoying when you listen live.

The only way we could get around that problem was to move the LDC way out into the room, at which point it captured a fairly nice full kit sound without the harsh/annoying sustain on the cymbals.

Where were you placing the LCD when it was giving you problems?

I use an M/S pair of LCDs as overhead mics...but I place them "inside" the kit...about 4' up and roughly over the drummer's between the Kick and Snare.
You can do the same with a single LCD (you just won't have the stereo spread).

I found that placing the OH mic(s) inside the kit instead of out in front, made a BIG difference in the level of the cymbals, and overall balance with the rest of the kit. Out front, and they are getting hit by the full force of cymbal sound coming off the cymbal edges.
When placed "inside" the kit...they pick up the cymbals off their tops, and there is much less level/energy coming off the tops of the cymbals…plus as an additional bonus, you DO get the sound coming off the tops of the toms and snare. Even the hat will sound good, so you don’t need to mic it individually.

Anyway...with your mismatched mics... I would to a close mic on snare and kick (inside). Put the LCD about 4’ overhead "inside" the kit. And stick the last one outside and further back for some room sound that you can blend in to-taste during the mixdown.
Also, unless the ceiling is real high, you want to deaden a bit too, otherwise you get a lot of early reflections into the OH mic(s).

Of course...this is all "on paper"...so you really have to see what you get in your particular room.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

It would also help to know where you're located. For example, if you were near our area (DFW, TX), I could loan you a couple of mics that might work better for you.

 

[darrin_h2000]

Wow, old thread.

Anyway, we did lots and lots of experimenting with the stereo overheads as suggested here but couldn't get a usable result. This probably has a lot to do with trying to make a mismatched stereo pair out of an LDC with a 57, our less-than-ideal acoustic space, lack of adequate experience, whatever.

The most annoying problem we encountered was the LDC would always pick up waaaay too much of the cymbals, and it sounded awful. I know our drummer doesn't have the best sounding cymbals on earth, but they don't sound annoying when you listen live.

The only way we could get around that problem was to move the LDC way out into the room, at which point it captured a fairly nice full kit sound without the harsh/annoying sustain on the cymbals.

For the kick, we pointed the mic in the sound hole and aimed it in the direction of the beater, but slightly off axis. Sounds pretty good.

The snare was another big problem. We tried all kinds of mic positions to capture the top, bottom, and side (with a 57) and it always sounded like dump. Mic'ing more towards the top would always sound dull and flat, more towards the bottom would always be too raspy and harsh. I found that using two mics on the snare (top and bottom), reversing the phase on the bottom one, and blending to taste provided the best result.

Matt

Ive been using 2 AT3035 3/4" LDCs for overheads...they were cheap at $50 each and really capture the set nicely...but the set is a 70s Ludwig Rocker with Zildjian A series...great sounding drums are the best place to start.

 

[mattdee1]

What Drums and cymbols did you use?...and what mics...did you Eq?

No EQ, mics are listed previously.

Being predominantly a guitarist and songwriter I know embarrassingly little about drum hardware. All I can tell you is it's a 2-year-old Yamaha kit, and I know the cymbals are on the low end. I have no doubt that's a big part of the problem, but the main issue (with respect to recording) was more in the annoying ringing/sustain of the cymbals which I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) was more of a mic placement issue than a kit issue.

I use an M/S pair of LCDs as overhead mics...but I place them "inside" the kit...about 4' up and roughly over the drummer's between the Kick and Snare.
You can do the same with a single LCD (you just won't have the stereo spread).

I found that placing the OH mic(s) inside the kit instead of out in front, made a BIG difference in the level of the cymbals, and overall balance with the rest of the kit. Out front, and they are getting hit by the full force of cymbal sound coming off the cymbal edges.

That makes a lot of sense miroslav, I'll definitely try the "in-the-kit" LCD next time.

It would also help to know where you're located. For example, if you were near our area (DFW, TX), I could loan you a couple of mics that might work better for you.

Ontario, Canada... so nowhere near you. That's a helluva nice thing to offer, anyway.

Thanks gents.
Matt

 

[miroslav]

I just noticed a typo in my comments...


It should read...about 4' up and roughly over the drummer's knee between the Kick and Snare.

Let me know how it works out for you.

I tried a bunch of OH positions...and finally settled on that one as the best balance of the drums VS cymbals. I should mention, I also have some light ceiling treatment that kills the HF flutters...so that helps in keeping the cymbal sound tame.

Not sure how it will work out with a single mic....obviously, you won't have the L/R spread that I get with my M/S stereo setup...but it should give you a nice Mono room sound, and then just sneak in the other, far mic for a touch of ambience...but not too much.
During mixdown, how you set the levels of your two spot mics relative to your main OH mic, will allow you to change the sound of the Kick and Snare to taste.
You can even try doubling the far mic track...putting a *few* (to taste) millisecond of delay on the doubled track, and then pan both far mic tracks hard left/right for a pseudo stereo effect...just keep it subtle.

 

[mattdee1]

I just noticed a typo in my comments...


It should read...about 4' up and roughly over the drummer's knee between the Kick and Snare.

I figured that was what you meant, but thanks for clarifying. One more question: any suggestions on where to point the mic? I know it'll probably take some T&E, but a starting point suggestion might be useful.

Thanks again
Matt

 

[darrin_h2000]

Point to the snare.

 

[miroslav]

I would point it straight down, perpendicular to the the whole kit, rather than aim at any one drum.
The snare, but it's nature, will still be the loudest element going to that mic...plus, you don't need to focus on the snare with the OH becuase you already have a spot mic on the snare.

 

[dodgeaspen]

If you still have questions try Greg's thread. It deals with a variety of things. Greg's general guide to rock drums for NEWBIES!

 

[dastrick]

How about using the (2) 57's for OH's and use the LDC for a room mic (placed about 3-4 ft. out in front of the kick)? You could experiment with your other mic for the snare. If it's a kick drum mic, it's probably eq'd for lower frequencies so you might try it around the bottom of the snare to tame the "raspy & harsh" sound that you got using a 57.

 

[dastrick]

You could also pick up a pair of cheap SDC for around $50-60. Like the Behringer C2's.

 

[RueMorgueRecord]

agreed

most of what these guys are saying will all work great with a good mix depending on what kind of drumming per instance. i would say
1 kick
2 snare
and 3&4 overhead and look up on google and youtube xy mic setup for the overheads.

but all depends on what your doing, my current recording, the drummer didnt want alot of snare, if thats case center out snare and hi hat to good mix. he said he hates hearing recordings with too much snare that it overpowers everything. its all preference though. i did 9 mic on that set so i was alot more flexible that your 4 especially with a board too. but if you dont want a huge amount of snare and want a fair amount of that and hi hat work them both on the same, with a kick and try the xy overheads. i could be wrong, its all up to you and what sounds best for you. only way is to mic it up and see what you get till your happy!