Best way to get a "heavy" guitar tone

[mrface2112]

do you have other rules like the mic must be 3 inches from the cone at 90 degrees? I bet not. So why start with the false premise that 1/2 an arbitrary gain setting is the right starting point.

that's the thing--for me, that's NOT an arbitrary starting point. It's a starting point based on what I know works for me and what I'm usually trying to achieve. sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, but it's somewhere to start.

Much like i typically start with a 421, about an inch off the grill, about 1/2 way between the center and edge of the speaker. is it always right? nope. but it's a good starting point.

hell, does the same amp sound the same day after day? mine don't. temperature, pressure, humidity all affect how things sound. so nothing's ever the same even when i leave the amp mic'd up.

Well stated...

Thanks, and I agree with your point about IMD.....some amps can be dialed in very gainy/saturated and still have clarity. the 5150 seems to be one of those, although in my limited experiences with one I have never gotten a sound i've really liked. admittedly that was right after they came out and not on my "terms". i'd like to have one to play around with these days. i was SHOCKED to learn that some of the higher-gain guitars on Rush's Snakes and Arrows were a 5150.

my comments about the thread going into the crapper were triggered by what appeared to be a pissing contest by two people who weren't communicating with each other. let's all step back a moment and try to understand what the other's saying.....

cheers,
wade

 

[Everybody]

PS--Here's a test for the original poster. You obviously have a sonic goal in mind. Setup your guitar/amp like you think it needs to sound to achieve that goal, mic it up and get it rockin. Then import a track from the band you're using as a reference into your recording program. Play the track and see what your amp/guitar sounds like in comparison. Note the differences. Then tweak til you get it right.

Thanks man! Im gonna have to try that out asap

I really dont know how to respond to all your guys suggestions at once haha but ive really enjoyed reading all of them and i guess when i get a band in ill try out these things and figure out which one works "better" for their style and what their looking for.

I am also so thankful for this forum and being able to communicate with people that dont mind helping out a little n00b!

Thank you all!

 

[Everybody]

Also punkrocker....thanks so much for that imperialmastering vid....sooooooooooooooooooooo much good info

 

[punkrocker]

Also punkrocker....thanks so much for that imperialmastering vid....sooooooooooooooooooooo much good info

no prob. if you're doing heavy metal stuff then there is a good chance you might be using a mesa rectifier at one point. PUT A TUBESCREAMER IN FRONT OF IT. 10000000000000 times better i swear. totally tightens up the bottum end. also i don't think he stresses enough what a difference a tube amp with new tubes and new strings on your guitar makes. one more thing, make a small treated booth to stick your amp in using owens corning or just use some roxul afb or safe (much cheaper and basically the same thing). lots of posts on this in the studio building section. good luck

 

[slowmotion]

ideas are good and I would suggest our heaviness definition is different. see my post #24. I understand this issue and often we talk past each on this because I find it's very difficult to describe sufficiently the tone in my head. thus, my gtr clips show you exactly what I think is heavy. I'll discuss how I get at it soon when I have a bit more time. hopefully a nugget will be found that is helpful.

for me, pointing to commercial CD tones does not help me record them.

I never stated my opinion about heavy other than ACDC. I still want to hear your suggestions put into practice... i.e. clips of your work. if you're touting methods, one would assume you use these methods.

Clips please!

Okay. I get the idea that you won't believe until you hear or you think I'm an idiot, that's not an issue for me. Your guitar clips are pretty much bang on what I "believe" is a heavy guitar sound, but that's not really in question (or is it?! now I'm confused)...

I don't have a bag of clips to pull out for this reason, hell, I don't own a studio and record with a modeller to a pc when I'm bored and go into a studio when I want to sound good. When I do, I use less gain than live, what I'd personally call "much much cleaner"... like gain on 3 on the lead channel of a 5150 and it works for me (many times). I disagree with your comment that everyone should even require this bag of clips before posting opinions. Or did I miss the interview where I needed a folio before signing up here?

If you NEED to hear it - Just put 4 or more guitar takes down through your DI, split them as previously discussed, reamp them all with super high gain sounds, then re-reamp them with less gain and you'll hear what I hope we're all talking about. Adding lots (keyword being lots) of high gain tracks together adds a lot of extraneous noise and hides detail. That's all we are saying.

Maybe you'd like me to do that for you, but honestly I can't be bothered just to prove a point. Give it a go, or not. It's only an opinion and I'm sorry if my lack of personal evidence for a well known and tested methodology bothers you, but regardless I maintain the same opinion.

At any rate, I do believe in not believing everything you read, so I appreciate your skepticism in a way. But give it a go, I promise it won't hurt.

 

[insanek9]

well i guess you could be doing the obvious

could i be playing dumb and stating the obvious at the same time?

first you buy a "heavy" guitar that is number one
second: learn how to play the ''heavy'' quitar
third: rent studio time and get it done good and proper
its actually not that expencive in some places..

but i would do the test project home in the homestudio and
when you are satisfied get it recorded in a real studio and you will get
perfect sound.. but a homestudio is a good way too get ready for recording
so u dont have too spend all your money just too record one song.. it's good training and it gives you time and space to edit and perfect the sound
without thinking of the sound quality

well it's just a suggestion. good luck

 

[Sonixx]

Okay. I get the idea that you won't believe until you hear or you think I'm an idiot, that's not an issue for me. Your guitar clips are pretty much bang on what I "believe" is a heavy guitar sound, but that's not really in question (or is it?! now I'm confused)...

I don't have a bag of clips to pull out for this reason, hell, I don't own a studio and record with a modeller to a pc when I'm bored and go into a studio when I want to sound good. When I do, I use less gain than live, what I'd personally call "much much cleaner"... like gain on 3 on the lead channel of a 5150 and it works for me (many times). I disagree with your comment that everyone should even require this bag of clips before posting opinions. Or did I miss the interview where I needed a folio before signing up here?

If you NEED to hear it - Just put 4 or more guitar takes down through your DI, split them as previously discussed, reamp them all with super high gain sounds, then re-reamp them with less gain and you'll hear what I hope we're all talking about. Adding lots (keyword being lots) of high gain tracks together adds a lot of extraneous noise and hides detail. That's all we are saying.

Maybe you'd like me to do that for you, but honestly I can't be bothered just to prove a point. Give it a go, or not. It's only an opinion and I'm sorry if my lack of personal evidence for a well known and tested methodology bothers you, but regardless I maintain the same opinion.

At any rate, I do believe in not believing everything you read, so I appreciate your skepticism in a way. But give it a go, I promise it won't hurt.

advising on how to achieve a heavy gtr tone, with conviction, but never having really ever done it... well other than with a modeller.

priceless...

and clips... I guess I misread your statement below as having some level of experience behind it. I am open for learning if you decide to post something that demos your advice.

My best advice is keep it WAY cleaner than you think it should be. Much much much cleaner. Some of the heaviest tones are actually really clean. Especially when stacking guitars. Its a bit contrary to what you'd think but it does sound better, honest.

 

[slowmotion]

advising on how to achieve a heavy gtr tone, with conviction, but never having really ever done it... well other than with a modeller.

priceless...

and clips... I guess I misread your statement below as having some level of experience behind it. I am open for learning if you decide to post something that demos your advice.

Wow, you're a real jerk. Because I don't own a studio or currently record the way you do, doesn't mean I haven't recorded many different ways over many years.

Pull your head out of your ass and grow up - and for the record, you can actually learn about things from less experienced people, oh most wise master. One could argue a more experienced person would understand this.

Oddly enough, if you tried it (even with a modeller, gasp), you'd see the theory is sound.

 

[Sonixx]

Im going to be recording some death metal, metalcore...Is there any good guitar software to get this type of tone, or is it all in mic placement, amp type, and what you do with comp/eq/all that?

have you checked out the Andy Sneap forum on Ultimatemetal.com. a lot of guys there use modeling with pretty good results.

 

[Bguzaldo]

I've never recorded death metal or anything very hardcore, but I really like how thick you can get a guitar when you sort of record in a 3 band eq manner.

Record one track very bassy, maybe even thru a bass amp with a kick mic, then do something in the mid range, then one in the high and blend them so they compliment each other.

It's not a perfect technique, there are a few problems like consistency with the playing and tuning and what not. But you can get a cool bodied tone if you do it right IMO.

I also like recording with the gain taken down a bit but I don't want to fight with anyone.

-Barrett

 

[Everybody]

That sounds like a pretty cool idea, might have to try it out sometime!

and for everyone else, i looked for just guitar clips of that band i showed you and found something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxc-QSRaBlI

idk if yall care to watch it or say something, just thought id share it.

thanks again to all of you for the techniques and tips!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I record the guitar clean through the EFX sends on the preamp side of the Amp then add my effects during editing this is the easiest way to experiment around with my MIDI, VST and DX arsenal.
when you mic the amp you are pretty much stuck with the effect that was recorded not to mention you loose all of your head room and is a lot easier to clip a track using a lot of distortion when recording a miked cab.

you have a whole lot more options recording direct and clean... JMO

While I do disagree with this approach in general, as a matter of personal taste, I want to call attention to the bolded part in particular.

First, I agree that only in very isolated instances should you consider recording a guitar with an "effect" on the signal. Only effects where their manipulation is part of the performance (volume, whammy, or wah pedals; an effects-driven performance where you're, say, tweaking the knobs of a delay pedal in real time to get a warped sound) or where it changes the way the amp reacts/breaks up (an overdrive to juice the front end a little, or a chewy chorus out front pushing an amp in and out of breakup a la Jimi) would I say it makes sense. Evedrything else, add it in the mix so you don't paint yourself into a corner while tracking.

Second, though... If you like working with amp modelers as a primary source of distortion, that's fine - it does give you a lot of flexibility down the road to reamp or change EQ settings or the like. However, it's flat out not true that you're more likely to "clip a track" if you're mic'ing a cab and using amp distortion. In fact, the reverse is true - distortion actually compresses an amp's transient response, so the vartiation between peak and sustain will be a hell of a lot less than a pristine clean track, which will be peaking all over the place but have very little "body" to the tone, comparatively speaking. I'm at work right now, so I can't pull up waveforms to demonstrate, but I'm sure someone here can and if not I'll do it sometime next week (as I'll be out of town all weekend).

I WILL grant you that sometimes it's harder to tell if a track is clipping through all that gain already on the signal coming in, but that's why you need to pay attention to your input meters.

Sonixx - I don't even know where to begin, exactly, save that as a general "good starting point," if you're micing up one of the plethora of "modern high gain amplifiers," insert your favorite brand here, it's not a bad idea to start (or at LEAST experiment) with less gain than you think you would need. My poison of choice at the moment is a Rectoverb combo into a Recto 2x12 cab, and generally when I run Modern mode with the gain any higher than halfway for a double-tracked performance, I find I'm less happy with the tone than when I go around maybe 11 o'clock. I'm not saying "never turn your gain above 5 for ANY reason" and in fact sometimes you can get pretty cool results doubling a dark, gainy track against a fairly clean one, but my personal experience has been there comes a point on every amp's gain range where you begin to trade off articulation for saturation, and given a fairly tight player (disclaimer, I'm a shyte rhythm guitarist ), sometimes that articulation makes you sound heavier than any additional saturation would.

Again, I won't get a chance to record until after the weekend, but if I do get some time I'll try to do a comparison clip between a fully saturated Rectoverb with bass and drums and a less saturated one. I don't necessarily agree that "try less gain" is a worthless suggestion unless someone posts clips to "prove" that statement, as you lose nothing by trying, but screw it.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Everybody - one other tip worth mentioning. This may be me, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'v4e noticed that when I'm kneeling in front of my amp, strumming chords and moving a mic around, I always tend to initially gravitate towards a "brighter" mic position, but then later on listening back in the mix and A/B'ing against a reference track, oftentimes I'll regret that decision and the tone will sound kind of thin and buzzy. So, two tips:

-One, don't immediately go to the "brightest" sounding mic position even if initially that's what your ear will tell you is the best sounding one, because it'll seem to jump out of your phones a little more than the alternatives due to that extra brightness, and your ear will initially be drawn to it because it seems louder. That doesn't mean it's "better," though.

-Two, when you think you've got your mic positioned right, record a 30-second clip or something, double-track it for the hell of it (and for a bit more realism), and then walk away for a couple minutes. Go listen to an album you like or something, or just try to clear your head. Come back ten or fifteen minutes later, and listen to your "test" track. If you still like the tone, then rock out. However, odds are, it's going to seem to bright and edgy. Wash, rinse, repeat as needed until you come back after a break and think "holy f*ck, that sounds awesome!"

 

[Sonixx]

Sonixx - I don't even know where to begin, exactly... I don't necessarily agree that "try less gain" is a worthless suggestion unless someone posts clips to "prove" that statement, as you lose nothing by trying, but screw it.

for me this started very simply... a poster made an assertion and I asked him to back it up with his own work. no more... no less. he couldn't or wouldn't. I did post several and have more available. I even stated that I wanted to calibrate because I know tone is subjective. It's as though less gain is a philosophy one is live their recording life by.... not to be questioned.

Back to examples... I actually ended up with a significantly higher gain setting than where I started... Tool's Lateralus

Cheers...

 

[donkeystyle]

I think that the statement "less gain, and more mids than you use live is better for recording" is something that some engineer came up with to keep from bruising someone's ego.

That's the nice way of saying you're inexperienced and haven't trained your ear to hear what you're really going for.

The fact is that if it's not working on the recording, in most cases it's probably not working live and no-one wants to hurt your feelings.

I do believe that telling someone that's trying to figure out how to record heavy guitars to start with less gain than they think they need is a good starting point though. Especially if they plan on adding a whole bunch of guitar tracks.

I know from experience that in the past I thought I had too much high end in my guitar tone when it was actually too much distortion making my guitar sound buzzy.

 

[Sonixx]

I think that the statement "less gain, and more mids than you use live is better for recording" is something that some engineer came up with to keep from bruising someone's ego.

That's the nice way of saying you're inexperienced and haven't trained your ear to hear what you're really going for.

The fact is that if it's not working on the recording, in most cases it's probably not working live and no-one wants to hurt your feelings.

I do believe that telling someone that's trying to figure out how to record heavy guitars to start with less gain than they think they need is a good starting point though. Especially if they plan on adding a whole bunch of guitar tracks.

I know from experience that in the past I thought I had too much high end in my guitar tone when it was actually too much distortion making my guitar sound buzzy.

i agree... well stated

 

[twsknight]

I just watched that guitar tone vid from imperial mastering, and I've got a couple of questions. The last few examples are two guitar tracks one panned right, the other left, each using a two mic setup. Would the the two mics for each recording be stacked, or would they be panned slightly different degrees to one side?

Also, would it be worth implementing a 3rd mic that is a bit further back to get a bit of the room in the recording, (in theory) making it sound a little bit more alive, perhaps giving a natural reverb/echo?

Finally, how far would you say the tracks are panned in the last few clips? Also, should I be panning guitar tracks further left or right than my overheads on the drums, or should the overheads have the most extreme panning?

I know this is a lot of questioning, and there is probably "no right answer" but to be honest at the moment I'm more concerned getting a good recording with as little fuss as possible, then getting an amazing recording.
I also realise that is not a great attitude to have, but I'm trying to get a band together with some friends. We won't be able to gig til summer 2009, so I'm planning out practice arrangements, demos to give to venues, websites, logos, artwork; basically everything I can that will help us get gigs and gain interest and fans. Once we've got gigging and fans, then I will work on experimenting and getting the very best sound.

Hopefully I won't cause anyone too much grief or offense with this attitude, and all advice will be greatly apprciated.

Oh and just for the record, the band is going to be quite punky sounding, but 70's punk like early Clash, so my guitar tracks won't be quite so heavy, but I imagine the principles still run true. If anyone has any genre specific experience, then I'd love to pick your brain.

I'm starting to worry that I'm up this late after a hard day at work, worrying about recording guitar, when I could be in bed with my girlfriend. This hobby has consumed me more than I thought!

Cheers

 

[DrewPeterson7]

for me this started very simply... a poster made an assertion and I asked him to back it up with his own work. no more... no less. he couldn't or wouldn't. I did post several and have more available. I even stated that I wanted to calibrate because I know tone is subjective. It's as though less gain is a philosophy one is live their recording life by.... not to be questioned.

Back to examples... I actually ended up with a significantly higher gain setting than where I started... Tool's Lateralus

Cheers...

Sigh... I guess I didn't explain myself well.

I don't think anyone' suggesting that "less gain" is some Biblical commandment handed down from upon high, and that you should ALWAYS lower your gain when you start tracking. Nor, I think, is anyone suggesting you should trust some online poster's one-sentence comment in a vacuum, without applying it to the reasonability test of your own ears - if you have one particular track (can't listen from the office, sorry bro) where you ended up turning up the gain, more power to you.

However, I think the "your opinion is worthless unless you post clips to back it up" approach is sort of needlessly hostile, and a little unnecessary. At the end of the day, any suggestion where the cost of trying it is maybe 10 minutes of lost time, and there's the potential that it just may work for you, is probably good advice.

I mean, to run all the way to an absurd example, if someone said "Hey, Drew, you should totally bang that hot chick over in Corporate Actions," I'm not going to reply, "Post pics of you banging her, or I won't bother. Meanwhile, here's a photoset of me with this fat chick in accounting. See? fat chicks are better, because I have pictures."

I mean, that's a little extreme and on some level you HAVE to hand it to any chick who doesn't mind if you pull out a camera when the two of you are getting it on, but in my experience amps are a little less inclined to slap you in the face, call you all sorts of names, and run away if you stick a mic in front of them, you know? It's pretty low risk, so you really lose nothing by trying, and if you decide you liked more gain, then delete your doubled tracks, roll up your gain knob and no harm no foul.

Meanwhile, I ripped my fretting hand fingernail half off my middle finger (ok, maybe a quarter) Friday night in an unfortunate drunken scotch-opening incident (why the hell do they insist on selling good scotch in those dumb canister things?), so I'm probably out of commission until the end of the week. After that, maybe I'll post something up, as I am afraid I don't have a "more gain/less gain" example sitting on my hard drive at the moment.

EDIT - and the one thing no one's talking about is that sometimes mixing some VERY low gain tracks in with a higher gain one can be quite effective too - it gives you the darkness and saturation of the higher gain ones, while adding a bit more attack and impact than a super-saturated track will ever give you.

 

[Sonixx]

Sorry man, but I've totally missed any point you are trying to make.

Let me be succinct about this Less Gain thing... I see it as a fix when it's suggested in these types of threads and often suggested/recommended without the author having the benefit of having heard anything the poster has recorded.

Cheers...

Sigh... I guess I didn't explain myself well.

I don't think anyone' suggesting that "less gain" is some Biblical commandment handed down from upon high, and that you should ALWAYS lower your gain when you start tracking. Nor, I think, is anyone suggesting you should trust some online poster's one-sentence comment in a vacuum, without applying it to the reasonability test of your own ears - if you have one particular track (can't listen from the office, sorry bro) where you ended up turning up the gain, more power to you.

However, I think the "your opinion is worthless unless you post clips to back it up" approach is sort of needlessly hostile, and a little unnecessary. At the end of the day, any suggestion where the cost of trying it is maybe 10 minutes of lost time, and there's the potential that it just may work for you, is probably good advice.

I mean, to run all the way to an absurd example, if someone said "Hey, Drew, you should totally bang that hot chick over in Corporate Actions," I'm not going to reply, "Post pics of you banging her, or I won't bother. Meanwhile, here's a photoset of me with this fat chick in accounting. See? fat chicks are better, because I have pictures."

I mean, that's a little extreme and on some level you HAVE to hand it to any chick who doesn't mind if you pull out a camera when the two of you are getting it on, but in my experience amps are a little less inclined to slap you in the face, call you all sorts of names, and run away if you stick a mic in front of them, you know? It's pretty low risk, so you really lose nothing by trying, and if you decide you liked more gain, then delete your doubled tracks, roll up your gain knob and no harm no foul.

Meanwhile, I ripped my fretting hand fingernail half off my middle finger (ok, maybe a quarter) Friday night in an unfortunate drunken scotch-opening incident (why the hell do they insist on selling good scotch in those dumb canister things?), so I'm probably out of commission until the end of the week. After that, maybe I'll post something up, as I am afraid I don't have a "more gain/less gain" example sitting on my hard drive at the moment.

EDIT - and the one thing no one's talking about is that sometimes mixing some VERY low gain tracks in with a higher gain one can be quite effective too - it gives you the darkness and saturation of the higher gain ones, while adding a bit more attack and impact than a super-saturated track will ever give you.

 

[Roguetitan]

Sorry man, but I've totally missed any point you are trying to make.

Let me be succinct about this Less Gain thing... I see it as a fix when it's suggested in these types of threads and often suggested/recommended without the author having the benefit of having heard anything the poster has recorded.

Cheers...

regardless of what the poster is recording....
Bottom line is you cannot have so much gain that it is clipping the track, Period. (well you can if you want a shitty sounding track that you can't do anything with).
And not so little that it does not cut through the mix. you also need to leave some amount of head room which I have found that -9 to -12 db to be ideal and you can get away upping the gain with Low end signals but not much more, some where around -5 db is ok for bass.
you can always push the faders up to where you need it during post recording editing;there are always more than one way to boost your gain post recording.



but you cannot unclip a recorded track that was recorded too hot to begin with.
That is just the cold hard facts.