Best starter setup for a recording newb?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jrhager84
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jrhager84 said:
The problem with the 1010LT is that the inputs are RCA, so I'd have to buy special cables to use, which I really don't want to do... Plus I think the sound would be a LOT cleaner with the firestudio

My budget just for a good recording setup for 8 tracks right now would be ~1000 dollars. I'm thinking the 600 dollar firestudio, 40 dollar 800/400/200/100 firewire card, etc.

I'm not sure why I'd need my Mackie mixer, I thought I could plug my drums directly into the interface, adjust the levels accordingly, then record raw, using plug-ins and eq to get the sound I want (always better to record clean, right?). The only REAL reason for the interface and whatnot is for 2 possible situations:

1. Me tracking my drums individually for better, cleaner sound

2. The ability to track 'live' at practices, getting rough ideas on hard drive for analysis/etc.

With the firestudio, I'd have 9 headphone pres as well, so I wouldn't have to buy a headphone amp....which saves me money down the line as well.

My budget (per se) is endless, as I have ~600/mo to spend on gear, but right off the bat, I'd like to get the ball rolling in the right direction by buying the gear that will have the MOST positive impact on the setup.


When you run rack mount gear, there's a correct way to run it, and there's a wrong way to work it. For example, some people, run reverb as an inline,

Source - Reverb Unit - Delta 1010

which is the wrong way to hook it up. You'll have more problems later.... Hooking a mixer up along with it, you could still use the inputs from the mic's to the mixer, from mixer out's to the firestudio, BUT, while that's all happening, instead of using effects WHILE you record, you route out the Aux sends to reverb unit, and to aux return. This gives you 1 dry, and 1 wet signal. If you don't like the reverb as much, you turn it down, without affecting the overall mix. That would be considered side chaining the effects unit. Some things, require you to inline patch, like compressors etc. This is how we do it in the full multi million dollar studio, this is how I do it at home, and every pro studio I go to.
 
I'm not sure if I follow. Here's what I want to do:

Run my drum mics DIRECTLY into the firestudio (or out through the outs on my mackie) into the computer

Mackie => outs => Firestudio => DAW

With my 1010lt, I'd need special unbalanced 1/4" to RCA wires made (to the tune of ~150 dollars) to go from my direct outs to the inputs of the 1010 (not my first choice) which also means I'm STUCK with 8 outs (my mackie only has 8 outs) and my drums need 11 tracks (eventually, I'm not recording my addt'l 3 toms)

With the firestudio, I could go from either the 1/4" outs of my board to the firestudio, or just go directly into the firestudio (I'm only looking for a dry signal anyways) I can EQ/effect the drums in post. I could also buy more firestudios, and have more pres to work with, and have no limitation in tracks, OR special cables, and also has the functionality of a headphone amp (~125 bucks)

Plus is comes w/ a software suite I could actually use (which I'm also debating either a UAD-1 or LM setup) which would also have software I could use.

Is there something about the firestudio I should know about?
 
chestwick91 said:
yeah you got most of the gear...but is the knoeledge there?

Well, I can't help but chuckle as you didn't even spell "knowledge" right....

I'm also not sure if I should take offense by that comment or not. It didn't seem helpful, but you might have thought it was at the time. I'd like to ask you to clarify, so I know exactly what you meant by your comment.

Either way thanks to all you guys for all of the helpful comments and knowledge that I can use.
 
jrhager84 said:
I'm not sure if I follow. Here's what I want to do:

Run my drum mics DIRECTLY into the firestudio (or out through the outs on my mackie) into the computer

Mackie => outs => Firestudio => DAW

With my 1010lt, I'd need special unbalanced 1/4" to RCA wires made (to the tune of ~150 dollars) to go from my direct outs to the inputs of the 1010 (not my first choice) which also means I'm STUCK with 8 outs (my mackie only has 8 outs) and my drums need 11 tracks (eventually, I'm not recording my addt'l 3 toms)

With the firestudio, I could go from either the 1/4" outs of my board to the firestudio, or just go directly into the firestudio (I'm only looking for a dry signal anyways) I can EQ/effect the drums in post. I could also buy more firestudios, and have more pres to work with, and have no limitation in tracks, OR special cables, and also has the functionality of a headphone amp (~125 bucks)

Plus is comes w/ a software suite I could actually use (which I'm also debating either a UAD-1 or LM setup) which would also have software I could use.

You need to decide whether your mixer pres are better than the Firestudio pres. If the Firestudio pres are better - and I hear they're very nice - there's no point in going through the mixer if you're gonna mix and process after recording anyway. I'm pretty sure you can use external processors wth Firestudo too, I'll have to check. Plus, like you said, with the Firestudio, you have more pres available. I dont have one, and that should be stressed, but I do love the look of them.
 
TelePaul said:
You need to decide whether your mixer pres are better than the Firestudio pres. If the Firestudio pres are better - and I hear they're very nice - there's no point in going through the mixer if you're gonna mix and process after recording anyway. I'm pretty sure you can use external processors wth Firestudo too, I'll have to check. Plus, like you said, with the Firestudio, you have more pres available. I dont have one, and that should be stressed, but I do love the look of them.

You mix after you record regardless anyways. You can use externals on any device, but how you hook them up is the key. Either you go from firestudio out, to the processor, than to a channel insert, which gives you an inline patch, or you send the signal back to the mixer, and use the mixer's routing capabilities to be able to route both inline & side chain patch. Reverb: side chain, delay: side chain, gate: inline, compressors: inline, EQ: inline. You can't or you shouldn't go inline with every processor. Doing no mixer, and mixing inside the box, you'll going to need to sit there, and record the effects etc... that's too time consuming to be used in a regular studio.

Pre => Firestudio => DAW => processor => record in firestudio, isn't a correct signal flow, though it can work.

pre => mackie => Firestudio => DAW is correct... the processors would be inline/side chained by the mackie's Aux sends, aux returns. This allows the signal to keep going from pre to the DAW, but while that's happening, the signal is basically "copied" and sent to processor, and meets back up with the original signal and continues to DAW, with no delay or latency. Or you can route that copied signal to it's own seperate channel and pan it or edit it... in a studio, it would go from mackie to CDRW, which you would mix everything on the mackie, and when your happy with the mixdown, you hit record & record the whole deal onto a CD.

Here's the signal flow of ....

Pro Tools Side Chain Outboard
Edit Window Shows, Sends view, sends view shows A-E or all, click on send, interface out, go from pro tools out to processor and back, create aux track, change to matching interface, raise fader.

Pro Tools Side Chain Internal
Edit Window Shows, Sends View, Send View shows, A-E or all, click on send, interface out, go to interface, buss it, create aux input track, go to aux input and match buss, go to insert of aux track, find plug-in, raise the fader.

The digital audio chain:
SPL – Line amp – Dither – Anti-Alias Filter – Sample & Hold – A/D Converter (multi-track) – Multi-Plextor- Error Correction – Record Modulation – Digital Out To Storage Medium

The digital Audio Chain B, from storage medium
Storage medium – recording de-modulation – error correction – De Multi-plexor – D/A converter – Sample & Hold – AA filter or Lo Pass filter – Line Amp – Speakers – Ear

Signal Flow In Recording Mode
SPL – Mic – Mic Cable – Floor Channel – Patch Bay (mic Lines) to channel line inputs (preamps) – Record/send – buss or direct – multitrack – record returns – stereo buss – power amp – speakers – ear

Signal Flow Of Studio G
SPL - Mic – mic cable – Floor Channel – Channel Mic Input – Preamp – Buss Or Direct – A/D Converter – Record Send – Multi Track – R

Side Chaining – out of Aux send of mixer – into processor – out of processor into Aux return (connected to stereo buss) , or to channel line input.

Inline Patch – insert send – processor – insert return
 
chestwick91 said:
yeah you got most of the gear...but is the knoeledge there?
The original post asks essentially, "How do I make good recordings at home, like the ones we did in a studio, when I'm just starting out?" Having decent quality gear gives you useable tools but it doesn't make you sound good. Chestwick's answer is right on, typo and all.

I listened to the first Myspace track. Sounds good. When it was recorded, were you involved in the details of mike selection, placement, processing, mixing? If so, you've got a head start on making good recordings yourself. Was it tracked in a room similar to the one you'll be using? If so, great, as you'll kind of know what to expect re room sound. I'm asking because most recording newbs find it very challenging to get a decent sound from a drumset, gtr, vocal, etc., until they go through a long learning process, and there are hundreds of threads here that discuss the fine points of those subjects. The gear is the easy part.
 
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Mindset said:
Pre => Firestudio => DAW => processor => record in firestudio, isn't a correct signal flow, though it can work.

pre => mackie => Firestudio => DAW is correct... the processors would be inline/side chained by the mackie's Aux sends, aux returns. This allows the signal to keep going from pre to the DAW, but while that's happening, the signal is basically "copied" and sent to processor, and meets back up with the original signal and continues to DAW, with no delay or latency. Or you can route that copied signal to it's own seperate channel and pan it or edit it... in a studio, it would go from mackie to CDRW, which you would mix everything on the mackie, and when your happy with the mixdown, you hit record & record the whole deal onto a CD.

Thats a good read. Is my point about the quality of the pres still valid though? I mean even if you send a mic through a (presumably) inferior Mackie pre through the (presumably) superior Firestudio, it's still gonna be an inferior signal right?
 
correct. That's the problem right there, though I would probably personally grab a better pre than both of them either way, but in his case, he would need to choose between using the firestudio pre's and routing that way, or using the mackie pre's and have better routing.... Though it may sound logical to go with the better sounding pre's, it would personally be a hard decision. Honestly, I don't know how the pre's on the Fire studio sound slike, so I couldn't make the assumption of which one sounds better. I do know that the Mackie 1604 is not a bad sounding mixer at all. We have 8 Mackie 1604's and 6 1642's in our lab room hooked up to 14 002 's and they sound great. I assume that for those line of family of mixers by Mackie, they use the same pre's in each model mixer. The pre's on it are not stellar, but they don't suck either.
 
TelePaul said:
Thats a good read. Is my point about the quality of the pres still valid though? I mean even if you send a mic through a (presumably) inferior Mackie pre through the (presumably) superior Firestudio, it's still gonna be an inferior signal right?
Yes, you're correct Paul.

Essentially you're sending a signal into an inferior pre, which gives out a bad signal to the better pre on the Firestudio. However, the Firestudio cannot increase the quality of the inferior signal from the mackie. Garbage in, garbage out...
 
Mindset said:
correct. That's the problem right there, though I would probably personally grab a better pre than both of them either way, but in his case, he would need to choose between using the firestudio pre's and routing that way, or using the mackie pre's and have better routing.... Though it may sound logical to go with the better sounding pre's, it would personally be a hard decision. Honestly, I don't know how the pre's on the Fire studio sound slike, so I couldn't make the assumption of which one sounds better. I do know that the Mackie 1604 is not a bad sounding mixer at all. We have 8 Mackie 1604's and 6 1642's in our lab room hooked up to 14 002 's and they sound great. I assume that for those line of family of mixers by Mackie, they use the same pre's in each model mixer. The pre's on it are not stellar, but they don't suck either.

Cool cool I get what you're saying exactly, but I suppose compromise is pretty normal with music! But I don't even know if the firestudio pres are better. I wonder how much processing will be done on the drums too other than compression?
 
TelePaul said:
Cool cool I get what you're saying exactly, but I suppose compromise is pretty normal with music! But I don't even know if the firestudio pres are better. I wonder how much processing will be done on the drums too other than compression?
Outside of compression, slight EQ, and possibly some reverb... there shouldn't be much of anything. Minimal processing is best.
 
Hey Telepaul, saw you were in Ireland. Wondered how big is "Rap Ireland" magazine doing. I THINK that's what it's called. I know that it used to be called something else, until him and the other founders changed the name... I have a long time friend who founded a magazine called something like that (Kevin Storrs) but haven't been in contact with him for about 6 months. Last time I really talked to him, he said it was taking off. Which he started the thing like few years ago. I'm guessing 3-4 years ago.
 
Ok, well now I'm slightly confused... Now obviously outside of a 3000 dollar rack, what are you suggesting is better than the firestudio (for the price range)?

I'd really like to know what you guys would use, as I don't want to drop 700 bucks on a rack that's "inferior" to something else (enough to justify paying more though).

Also, I am very aware of mic placement, as well as room layout, etc. My question was entirely based from a gear/hardware/wiring perspective. What I mean is I know HOW to mic something, but I don't know what in goes to what send that goes to what return. (chain what?) LOL When it comes to hooking up chains and all that stuff, I'm COMPLETELY retarded (I was going from the ins in my mackie to my tape output (RCA, and yes I know it's not entirely correct, but I'd need special cables made to do it right)

If I have to save up to get a better rack I will.... I just can't afford to buy the Waves Platinum plugins, the distressor, a couple 1176 kits, a few la-2a kits, etc.

I want a superior rack for the price range I'm looking at (~1000). If I CANNOT get a studio-ish sound from a rack that's that "cheap" (under 1000 bucks) then I'll save up and get something that's recommended from you guys.

What are some racks that are worth looking into? I'm not opposed to buying a used rack (I know people that sell really nice used rack hardware). Let me know what stands the test of time, and what you'd rather have, as it would greatly assist me in my gear hunt.
 
**update**

I can't seem to find any bad press on the firestudio

Is it that it's "bad", or that it's just not multi-million dollar studio quality? I've been looking at some RME interfaces, some MOTU interfaces, and none seem to deliver as much for as little (which could be a good OR a bad thing). Any sites you guys know of that have comprehensive reviews of each interface? I can't find ANYTHING that outright recommends anything...
 
jrhager84 said:
**update**

I can't seem to find any bad press on the firestudio

Is it that it's "bad", or that it's just not multi-million dollar studio quality? I've been looking at some RME interfaces, some MOTU interfaces, and none seem to deliver as much for as little (which could be a good OR a bad thing). Any sites you guys know of that have comprehensive reviews of each interface? I can't find ANYTHING that outright recommends anything...

Hey bro! Just my opinion...but you will kinda have to start somewhere...and the great thing about software recording is that it's constantly expandable. I'm not saying you shouldn't get the best deal....but I know my Interface is a piece of crap compared to the Firestudio, and the sequencer I first started on won't do a fraction of the things that bundled software will. For what it's worth, I'd take the plunge and go Presonus. Music recording and production can be hard, you may find after you invest alot of money you just hate or can't do it. And with the gear you're talking about, you won't be starting anywhere near the begineers side of the scale.
 
that's true, the gear isn't sub par by no means. We are talking about high end to high end comparison. For it's class that is.... There's the better ones, from $10K and up if you want that type of processors, interfaces etc. I use one of 6 studios a day, each has it's own equipment, one of them has a vintage Neve, another has a SSL 6000 for that particular sound, my favorite one is the DM2000.
 
I just dont' want to get "stuck" with something that isn't worth it's price. I side-by-side compared the RME the MOTU and the PreSonus, and I have to say I'm VERY impressed with the value of the firestudio compared to the others...as well as the bundled software and plugins, etc.

I just want good sound, something along the lines of what is on the myspace (as a starting point). I'm not saying after this purchase I'll stop buying things, I just want my first recording purchase to be the most impactful (allowing me to have a more versatile setup). I also like the idea of a constantly expandable setup (I learn quite quickly).

As long as I have something to physically see (I'm very kinesthetic in my learning) I can use trial-and-error to figure things out. With the delta 1010lt, I'd need 1/4" to RCA adapters (which cost a lot) not to mention I only have 2 PCI inputs on my board (it was originally a gaming board). With the firestudio, I can also use the extra PIC slot to get a UAD-1 card to get 1176SE and LN as well as Fairchild, la-2a etc... which I'd really like to end up using...

I'm still pretty confident that the firestudio wouldn't be a "waste" per se, as more of a learning tool that isn't as expensive as the top-dollar rack hardware.

I think I'll end up picking it up Friday....if things go right. I'll probably end up ordering it from Guitar Center, so I have a 30 day return period so if it doesn't work out, I cn always take it back and not be at a loss...
 
wow guys i meant knowledge...thought this was homerecording.com and not english class...let it go...and dude i was trying to help...if you don't know how to use the 1010 then start with the manual...then learn how to record, mix, mic, and do you know how to use any dynamics....
this is where you should start
reade some stuff on yahoo or google or even here...
 
It may not be reading class, but reading comprehension would be a plus right about now...

As stated previously, I'm only an idiot when it comes to signal flow, etc. I know how to use dynamics, I know how to mic, I know how to arm tracks, I know how to track/eq/etc. With the 1010, to even TRY to learn how to utilize the inputs (or lack thereof) I'd have to buy 150 bucks worth of cables (because my mixer only has 8 outs [1/4"] and the 1010 only has RCA inputs *except for 2 XLR inputs that have pre's on them*, and if I don't like it, I'm screwed...not exactly the best bet in my opinion....

the 1010 setup right now forced me (due to lack of funds for special-made 1/4"-RCA connections) to use the tape output (2x analog mono RCA connections) to track everything (making drums a L/R track instead of multiple single tracks). There was also a HORRIBLE buzzing from the lame tape output (as well as the length of wire needed to travel), so it really didn't help at all...and I don't feel like shelling out 150 bucks for cables to make a card (which now doesn't have enough inputs) work, thereby meaning I'd have to buy ANOTHER 1010 card, as well as another mixer to get all 11 drum tracks on the mix... whereas a firestudio (600 bucks) with a firewire card (~75) and another digimax FS (500) would give me 16 pres and a LOT more versatility. I'll break down how I came to my conclusion here:

1010 route:

Cables - ~200-250 dollars (for all 11 connections to be made)
Mixer - ~300-500 dollars (cause my mackie only has 8 outs)
2nd 1010 - 200 dollars (needed for sufficient amount of inputs)

Total inputs - 20
Total pres - 4
Total cost - ~950 dollars

Firestudio Route:

Firestudio - 600
Firewire card - 75
Digimax FS - 500

Total inputs - 40
Total pres - 16
Total cost - ~1175

With the Firestudio, it's all taken care of from a routing standpoint (plug in cables, use software suite to set peak/mix/etc. I'm definately more effective in the software region as opposed to the hardware one (the routing/flow and numbers and stuff confuse the HELL outta me) So in my eyes, I find that the Firestudio/FS combo would be more effective in my setup, and would give me greater flexibility in the long run. Not to mention I'm far from impressed by the 1010 thus far.

My methods might be WAY off, and I will stand corrected if something doesn't line up, but to me, the obvious choice in my situation is to move on to the firestudio route. I wait patiently for a response,

-Joel
 
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