Best Gauge Wire for Amp to Mixer Cable

[amanisdude]

Hi all!

As some of you know, I'm attempting to get gear ready to webcast a wedding, and, for the most part, I'm a total newb when it comes to audio gear. ...I'm also broke.

Right now, I am attempting to buy or make a cord that would connect a tiny Nady MM-242 mixer to some mysterious amp that the Church's audio will be fed through. I've already figured that the Church's end of the cable should be a 1/4-inch stereo (TRS) plug, and that should split to two 1/4-inch mono (TS) plugs for the Nady.

My question is, whether I buy or (I know) make the cable, what gauge wire should I use? I figure that 22 AWG should be sufficient, but is there an inside industry standard when it comes to connecting mixers to pre-amps... or whatever I'm going to be connecting my Nady to?

I won't actually build the cable until I'm sure what I'm interfacing with, but it's good to have some idea of what I'm getting myself into. Thanks for any help! You guys are awesome!


‒amanisdude
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EDIT: I should probably amend this question with the fact that I am not shy of soldering irons. If it is cheaper for me to buy a bulk cord and solder it to some plugs, I'm all game.

 

[Track Rat]

You're missing some info. The TRS on the Church's end, is this meant to be a balanced mono input? And what is the projected length of this cable? The gauge of the wire is errelevant. Balanced vs unbalanced does matter.

 

[amanisdude]

You're missing some info. The TRS on the Church's end, is this meant to be a balanced mono input? And what is the projected length of this cable? The gauge of the wire is errelevant. Balanced vs unbalanced does matter.

Heh. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not exactly sure how long the cord will need to be, but for now, I am going to put the tentative length at 100 feet, since the amp is at the front of the main hall, and our systems will be set up in the back.

As for the amp on the church's side, I'm not sure if it's balanced or unbalanced, stereo or mono. For now, I'm going to assume it is unbalanced stereo, or whatever the standard tends to be. (I should know more information by the end of this week. The main reason I asked this question is so that I know what I need to look out for. )

Also, I should clear up the fact that it will be the church's amp that will be outputting to my mixer, not the other way around. The only purpose of my mixer is to make adjustments before the sound is fed into my computer, which will broadcast the stream to the Interwebs. Sorry if that was confusing. Let me know if this didn't really clear things up.


‒amanisdude
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[Bobbsy]

Unless the amp has a loop through, you do NOT want to feed from an amp to a mixer. An amp, er, amplifies and even a small one puts out a vastly higher signal than the line level inputs on a mixer want to receive. Line level is +/- 1 volt; the output of even a 200 watt amp is probably putting out 40ish volts at some points on the waveform.

More info before you plug anything in please.

 

[gecko zzed]

Heed what Bobbsy says!

If you are trying to get speaker level input into your mixer, you are heading for potential disaster. However, the church's amp may be a power mixer itself, with line level outputs (e.g. a rec out). What you would need then is balanced cable. What would be helpful is for you to describe or post a pic of the amp.

 

[amanisdude]

Copy that! I'll find out more information, then post to this thread again. Thanks for the help, guys!

‒amanisdude
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[ecc83]

This, IMHO is what "audio" should be about! Doing stuff a bit out of the ordinary and for yourself and others.

In this instance however I urge great caution. There ARE several ways to safely derive a line level signal from any power amp, even one of kW capability but ONLY if you really know what you are at. There is a real danger of forking that church amp and that would be embarrassing to say the least since you admit you are broke!

But, every POWER amp must have an input...THAT is what you need to find.

Dave.

 

[Bobbsy]

Or, even more to the point, that input must come from somewhere, probably a mixer. The vast majority of mixers will have some form of extra output--maybe something mirroring the main outs or, possibly even better, maybe a spare pre fade aux channel or two you can use to create a custom mix for recording.

I'd be looking at solutions like these.

 

[amanisdude]

Haha, thanks Dave.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'll be plugging my mixer into, whether it'll be an amp, another mixer, or something else. In all honesty, the only thing I know about the church's audio system is that it has one.

But, every POWER amp must have an input...THAT is what you need to find.

By this, do you mean an input you plug cables into, or an input as in a control input (buttons, nobs, etc.)? Since I'm supposed to be taking the feed from the church audio output and plugging it into my own mini-mixer, I assume you mean some kind of control interface (such as independent gain adjustment).

I'm going to be going to the church this Saturday (California time), and I should know what I'm dealing with after then.


‒amanisdude
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EDIT:

Or, even more to the point, that input must come from somewhere, probably a mixer. The vast majority of mixers will have some form of extra output--maybe something mirroring the main outs or, possibly even better, maybe a spare pre fade aux channel or two you can use to create a custom mix for recording.

I'd be looking at solutions like these.

Haha, yeah. That's actually what I was thinking. That the best bet is to find a mixer (or control room if the church is hipster enough) and plug in there. I just started this thread off with plugging into an amp because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

From what I gather via how snazzy the church looks (and, apparently, how much they charge for weddings), the church is rolling in it. So I wouldn't be surprised if they have a good $10,000 system set up. Then again, I won't know for sure until I get there (and probably feel my jaw drop). ^_^"

 

[moresound]

You should bring your laptop with you and converse here from the church. I bet all problems would be solved in no time flat with that approach.

 

[amanisdude]

You should bring your laptop with you and converse here from the church. I bet all problems would be solved in no time flat with that approach.

Haha, thanks for the advice. I may just do that.


‒amanisdude
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[moresound]

 

[Steenamaroo]

Also, I should clear up the fact that it will be the church's amp that will be outputting to my mixer, not the other way around. The only purpose of my mixer is to make adjustments before the sound is fed into my computer, which will broadcast the stream to the Interwebs.

It may already have been covered, but I think you're looking for a pair of line outs from the churches amp.
They might be labelled as line out, pre out, tape out, or rec(ord) out.

Anything that's bare wire outputs, (especially with an ohm or power rating) is amplified and is intended to hit speakers.
Definitely don't use these.

Any proper line output will be a standard TS, TRS or RCA jack output. Standard audio cables with the right ends will do the job.
Selecting appropriate wire gauge is more of an issue when dealing with amplified audio.

Hope that's helpful.

 

[Bobbsy]

I
Any proper line output will be a standard TS, TRS or RCA jack output. Standard audio cables with the right ends will do the job.
Selecting appropriate wire gauge is more of an issue when dealing with amplified audio.

Yup. As Steenamaroo says, specifying by wire gauge is really only done for loudspeaker cables. Assuming you can get a line level source of some sort, you'll probably want some kind of screened (or shielded--same thing, different sides of the Atlantic) twin cable.

If you're going to be installing it every week then taking it out and coiling it frequently, I'd probably go with something designed for microphone use (say a Belden 46349 or equivalent). If it's just going to sit there, something lighter like a Foil Screened Twin (like a Belden 1508A or equivalent). Or, if you're not used to soldering your own connectors, once you know what you want, just march into an audio specialist and ask to buy "two 3 metre TRS to TRS cables" or whatever it turns out you need.

 

[amanisdude]

Wow! Thanks guys! That all cleared things up nicely!

Actually, I probably should have read this first so I had a better understanding of what was being said.


Nevertheless, everything's clear now!

Balanced vs unbalanced does matter.

...the church's amp may be a power mixer itself, with line level outputs (e.g. a rec out). What you would need then is balanced cable.

...every POWER amp must have an input...THAT is what you need to find.

Or, even more to the point, that input must come from somewhere, probably a mixer. The vast majority of mixers will have some form of extra output--maybe something mirroring the main outs or, possibly even better, maybe a spare pre fade aux channel or two you can use to create a custom mix for recording.

It may already have been covered, but I think you're looking for a pair of line outs from the churches amp.
They might be labelled as line out, pre out, tape out, or rec(ord) out.

Anything that's bare wire outputs, (especially with an ohm or power rating) is amplified and is intended to hit speakers.
Definitely don't use these.

Any proper line output will be a standard TS, TRS or RCA jack output. Standard audio cables with the right ends will do the job.
Selecting appropriate wire gauge is more of an issue when dealing with amplified audio.

As Steenamaroo says, specifying by wire gauge is really only done for loudspeaker cables. Assuming you can get a line level source of some sort, you'll probably want some kind of screened (or shielded--same thing, different sides of the Atlantic) twin cable.

This might just be the most helpful forum I've ever posted to! I definitely know what to look for now!

_________________

But let me throw a couple of scenarios your way just so I'm fully prepared (and look like I know what I'm talking about when conversing with the wedding coordinator. )


First scenario: Let's say I get there and the mixer or amp has no line/pre/tape/rec/aux out. Would it be safe just to (ouch!) fork the line going into the mixer to my mixer? Or would it be better to plug into a gain-controlled output from the mixer? (i.e., Is it safe to "daisychain" mixers?)

Second scenario: Let's say I get there and all the line out jacks coming out of the mixer (or maybe amp) are balanced? Being that my mixer is unbalanced... how would I convert the signal? Is there some other device I should look to for an unbalanced signal (pre-amp, etc.)?

Th...Third scenario: Let's say Marty McFly shows up from 1985 and plugs his guitar into the Church's amp, only to blow the place sky high. ...Did the amp survive the speaker's explosion? Am I now dead?

You don't have to consider that third one. I just can't help myself in imaginary projective scenarios.

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But getting back to reality, I just have one final question.

If I need to make a short, unbalanced cable, could I just make my own cable in this fashion? I know he's making a speaker cable and it's not shielded, but could something like this work for plugging unbalanced mixers into each other over short (or long) distances?

Or would it be better to make a cable like this (an instrument cable)?

Thanks guys!


‒amanisdude
__________________

ALSO:

If you're going to be installing it every week then taking it out and coiling it frequently, I'd probably go with something designed for microphone use (say a Belden 46349 or equivalent). If it's just going to sit there, something lighter like a Foil Screened Twin (like a Belden 1508A or equivalent). Or, if you're not used to soldering your own connectors, once you know what you want, just march into an audio specialist and ask to buy "two 3 metre TRS to TRS cables" or whatever it turns out you need.

I wouldn't worry about taking the cable in and out much. Right now, I'm just focused on getting equipment ready for the one day. However... I do like to make things that last. Have you ever tried Mogami cables? Do you know of any good retailer (online, preferably) that sells microphone cables by the foot? What's the best cheapest one in your experience. Sorry for the barrage of questions.

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[Bobbsy]

First scenario: Let's say I get there and the mixer or amp has no line/pre/tape/rec/aux out. Would it be safe just to (ouch!) fork the line going into the mixer to my mixer? Or would it be better to plug into a gain-controlled output from the mixer? (i.e., Is it safe to "daisychain" mixers?)

It's probably unlikely that there's a spare amp out--I'd guess they'll all be going to speakers--but, on the off chance there IS one, do NOT plug it into your mixer unless you like smoke signals. The amp out to the speaker is not suitable to go into a mixer. On the other hand, it's entirely safe to "daisy chain" mixers--it's done all the time. The key thing is you want a line level output.

Second scenario: Let's say I get there and all the line out jacks coming out of the mixer (or maybe amp) are balanced? Being that my mixer is unbalanced... how would I convert the signal? Is there some other device I should look to for an unbalanced signal (pre-amp, etc.)?

Not a problem. You can make/buy adaptor cables for this purpose. If it turns out that way, let us know what connectors you need at either end and we can tell you what wiring you need.

Th...Third scenario: Let's say Marty McFly shows up from 1985 and plugs his guitar into the Church's amp, only to blow the place sky high. ...Did the amp survive the speaker's explosion? Am I now dead?

I'd worry more about the amorous advances from your mother, to be honest.

If I need to make a short, unbalanced cable, could I just make my own cable in this fashion? I know he's making a speaker cable and it's not shielded, but could something like this work for plugging unbalanced mixers into each other over short (or long) distances?

Bad idea. Speaker cable is carrying current more akin to mains voltage--and mains cable makes good speaker cable. For the much lower signals in audio cables it's important to use the proper screened cable. Yeah, you'd get some kind of signal but you're open to lots of interference.

Or would it be better to make a cable like this (an instrument cable)?

Thanks guys!

An instrument cable is more what you want but, by definition, is unbalanced. Wait til you see what you need.

I wouldn't worry about taking the cable in and out much. Right now, I'm just focused on getting equipment ready for the one day. However... I do like to make things that last. Have you ever tried Mogami cables? Do you know of any good retailer (online, preferably) that sells microphone cables by the foot? What's the best cheapest one in your experience. Sorry for the barrage of questions.

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Mogami is good cable, as is Canare if you happen to find that. There are others too but my experience is more in the UK so there's no point in recommending the stuff I'd use there! Sorry, can't help with suggested suppliers unless you move to England but I'm sure others will be along.

 

[Lt. Bob]

It's probably unlikely that there's a spare amp out--I'd guess they'll all be going to speakers--but, on the off chance there IS one, do NOT plug it into your mixer unless you like smoke signals. The amp out to the speaker is not suitable to go into a mixer. On the other hand, it's entirely safe to "daisy chain" mixers--it's done all the time. The key thing is you want a line level output.



.

I think on this one he was asking if it's ok to take the line in to the power amp and use a Y cable to also send the line signal to his mixer.

And yes .... you can do that but don't forget that you'll be splitting the signal so it won't drive the amp quite as loud and you may have to turn the amp or mixer send up to compensate.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I really depends what arrangement they have. I think terminology is getting jumbled here too.

If they have a unpowered/passive mixing desk which feeds an amp, then yes, you could split their output as lt.bob describes.
Furthermore, you'll probably find their mixer has more than one output anyway, so you could take a mix of your own via subgroup out or something like that.

If on the other hand they have a powered mixer, or one of those amps with a mixer built, then no, you probably can't highjack the signal on the way in, because I imagine it's going to be coming from several sources.
A few mics or whatever, right?

Again, it depends on the arrangement, but if they have a spare line out between their mixer and amp, use that.
If they don't, plug all their crap into your mixer, then use it to feed their amp and your own recording media.

 

[amanisdude]

Thanks all!

It's probably unlikely that there's a spare amp out--I'd guess they'll all be going to speakers--but, on the off chance there IS one, do NOT plug it into your mixer unless you like smoke signals. The amp out to the speaker is not suitable to go into a mixer. On the other hand, it's entirely safe to "daisy chain" mixers--it's done all the time. The key thing is you want a line level output.

I think on this one he was asking if it's ok to take the line in to the power amp and use a Y cable to also send the line signal to his mixer.

Haha, yeah. I was referring to a mythical, unamplified, line-level passthrough on the amp (or splitting it at the feed source). Then again, with all these warnings, I think I'm unlikely to even look for the amplifier much less plug into amp out. Even if I see something labeled "line out" on the amp, I probably won't go near it.

I really depends what arrangement they have. I think terminology is getting jumbled here too.

If they have a unpowered/passive mixing desk which feeds an amp, then yes, you could split their output as lt.bob describes.
Furthermore, you'll probably find their mixer has more than one output anyway, so you could take a mix of your own via subgroup out or something like that.

If on the other hand they have a powered mixer, or one of those amps with a mixer built, then no, you probably can't highjack the signal on the way in, because I imagine it's going to be coming from several sources.
A few mics or whatever, right?

Phew. I think I'm going to wait to tackle this 'til Monday, the day I'll now be going there. When I do, I'll take lots of pictures and post them here, then go again at some later date to test it out. (I'd be missing the cables, after all. )

Again, it depends on the arrangement, but if they have a spare line out between their mixer and amp, use that.
If they don't, plug all their crap into your mixer, then use it to feed their amp and your own recording media.

Haha, well, plugging all their crap into my mixer might be somewhat out of the question, since mine is a teeny-weeny, itty-bitty mini-mixer (a Nady MM-242). I'd also be afraid that I'd somehow distort the sound going out to their system or, worse yet, somehow blow their system sky high, costing us bajillions and bajillions of dollars in monies.

Then again, they must have some technical staff (hopefully with more knowledge than just the basics), so I'll solicit their help if they are there on the day of testing. Somehow, though, I doubt they will be available that day. It'll probably just be an empty church and a confused-looking newbie with a camera (me).


‒amansidude
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[ecc83]

Should it be the case that a speaker connection is the only one available you could use one of these..

ART Z Direct DI Box | Z Direct Passive D.I. Box by ART | ART Specialist

Behringer and others make similar boxes.
Dave.