Blue Bear Sound
New member
Coming from someone who seems to be satisifed with Behringer gear, this comment is laughable.....Mosfet said:
I'm done debating with you........
I'm done debating with you........
tkingen
Djembes Rock
I think an analogy is in order here...
Composer Pro = Spaghettios
RNC = Olive Garden
1176N = that downtown ristorante where the busboys wear tuxedos
This analogy is absolutely true and non-negotiable!
Terry
Composer Pro = Spaghettios
RNC = Olive Garden
1176N = that downtown ristorante where the busboys wear tuxedos
This analogy is absolutely true and non-negotiable!
Terry
MISTERQCUE
Not Just Anutha Brutha
RNC baby!!!
Composer pro is decent for using on lite vocs, drums machines (hiss gating)
and certain peak-levelling capabilities, but the RNC is the way to go!
I have 'em both!
Composer pro is decent for using on lite vocs, drums machines (hiss gating)
and certain peak-levelling capabilities, but the RNC is the way to go!
I have 'em both!
LemonTree
Suck 'em and see!
Looks like Mosfet just earned a whole bunch of respect and future help from the community from this post.....NOT! 
I have a composer and it sucks. Even with the comp switched out I can still hear it colour my tracks...ok it gets a job done but it really is the bargain basement of compressors. RNC on the other hand.....SWEET!
chalk n cheese
I have a composer and it sucks. Even with the comp switched out I can still hear it colour my tracks...ok it gets a job done but it really is the bargain basement of compressors. RNC on the other hand.....SWEET!
chalk n cheese
formerlyfzfile
New member
Oh man.......
Tongi, since this was originally your question, I will give you my hobbiest's 2 cents as I own both the Composer Pro and the RNC.
The Berri deffinitely has a sound, not always a bad sound, but a sound. I cant say that I have experienced it adding any artificial high end but it is not very quiet. I tend to use it for some distorted electric guitars and bass (though now I have a Symetrix 501 which handels bass much better IMO) and sometimes on drum loops to give some effect.
The very best thing on the Composser is the gate. Works quite well. You can't be too slick with it but it does the job and considering you can get used Composers for like $40 (which speaks volumes in itself), it might be worth getting one just for gating.
Also, the Composser is a true two channel unit and can be used dual-mono or linked-stereo.
The RNC is a stereo unit with one set of controls so its always linked and cannot be used independently on two seperate sources.
The RNC is SUPER CLEAN and unless you really slam it hard it is very transparent. The very best feature is the Super Nice Mode ..... excellent for vocal compression and for acoustic guitar. Its very hard to get it to pump in Super Nice Mode.
You can set the Composer up similarly by doing light compression in one channel and then sending that channel to the other and compressing harder, but I've found it's not nearly as smooth or clear sounding.
That said ..... one thing the RNC falls short on is low end signals like bass and kick. A lot of low end seems to cause it to misshandle the signal.... I dont know technically why that is but thats what my ears hear, which is why many PROs (that I've read about) feel it is not the compressor you want to put across the master buss for mix down.
I have tried it on the 2buss and gotten descent results but that was when it was barely compressing. The RNC was not really designed to be a brick wall limiter.
Now I've actully achieved better results with the Berry on the 2buss as far as compression sound (IMO .... dont slap me) but the noise from the unit is usually too noticeable for me to want to use it and now since all my mixes go into Sound Forge I just use Wave Hammer.
One other thing .... the wall wart on the RNC does kinda suck ......but thats a trade off I can live with.
Cheap, clear, and transparent = RNC
Cheap, colored, and more noticeable = Composer Pro
Cheap, brown, and pure effect = DBX 286 (or any of the cheap DBX I've heard)
And I dont want to jump in the middle of an entertaining mauling ...... but ....
Mosfet, I dont know what kind of studio experience you have, and I'm not questioning it per se, but dude, every studio set up I've ever seen or even read about has a patch bay (or two) SPECIFICALLY for insert sends and returns. Putting a compressor in an insert IS putting it directly between a device and the rest of the board, essentially. Unless the patch bays are 300 feet from the console then the unbalanced issue should not be a problem if every thing is wired up good.
I mean if insert points to patch bays sonically degraded the signal to ANY noticable extent then do you think ANY pro studio would set things up this way. Why would you limit your routing options.
All of the many studios you've worked at must have well to do clients if they dont mind paying for all the extra time it takes for you to go behind your racks and repatch the back of the units for every different signal chain you need.
I dont know ...... maybe you're using Berhinger patch bays ..... I have one BTW and 4 of the channels stopped passing signals within 6-8 months but hey ..... I got it for $12 on clearence.
I dont recall any piece of equipment that was recomended as best bang for buck by pros like Fletcher, Harvey Gerst, Blue Bear, a ton of people at Tape OP, etc .... that "sort of makes whatever goes through it muddy sounding."
Honestly ..... maybe you have a faulty RNC unit ...... thats possible ...... although I'm sure you have the technical know how to test that out and have done so extensively.
That said .... I agree that for the money the Composser is useful, and I still use mine a lot, but the RNC I feel is a much more versitle unit because of its smoothness and tranparency.
-mike
Tongi, since this was originally your question, I will give you my hobbiest's 2 cents as I own both the Composer Pro and the RNC.
The Berri deffinitely has a sound, not always a bad sound, but a sound. I cant say that I have experienced it adding any artificial high end but it is not very quiet. I tend to use it for some distorted electric guitars and bass (though now I have a Symetrix 501 which handels bass much better IMO) and sometimes on drum loops to give some effect.
The very best thing on the Composser is the gate. Works quite well. You can't be too slick with it but it does the job and considering you can get used Composers for like $40 (which speaks volumes in itself), it might be worth getting one just for gating.
Also, the Composser is a true two channel unit and can be used dual-mono or linked-stereo.
The RNC is a stereo unit with one set of controls so its always linked and cannot be used independently on two seperate sources.
The RNC is SUPER CLEAN and unless you really slam it hard it is very transparent. The very best feature is the Super Nice Mode ..... excellent for vocal compression and for acoustic guitar. Its very hard to get it to pump in Super Nice Mode.
You can set the Composer up similarly by doing light compression in one channel and then sending that channel to the other and compressing harder, but I've found it's not nearly as smooth or clear sounding.
That said ..... one thing the RNC falls short on is low end signals like bass and kick. A lot of low end seems to cause it to misshandle the signal.... I dont know technically why that is but thats what my ears hear, which is why many PROs (that I've read about) feel it is not the compressor you want to put across the master buss for mix down.
I have tried it on the 2buss and gotten descent results but that was when it was barely compressing. The RNC was not really designed to be a brick wall limiter.
Now I've actully achieved better results with the Berry on the 2buss as far as compression sound (IMO .... dont slap me) but the noise from the unit is usually too noticeable for me to want to use it and now since all my mixes go into Sound Forge I just use Wave Hammer.
One other thing .... the wall wart on the RNC does kinda suck ......but thats a trade off I can live with.
Cheap, clear, and transparent = RNC
Cheap, colored, and more noticeable = Composer Pro
Cheap, brown, and pure effect = DBX 286 (or any of the cheap DBX I've heard)
And I dont want to jump in the middle of an entertaining mauling ...... but ....
Mosfet, I dont know what kind of studio experience you have, and I'm not questioning it per se, but dude, every studio set up I've ever seen or even read about has a patch bay (or two) SPECIFICALLY for insert sends and returns. Putting a compressor in an insert IS putting it directly between a device and the rest of the board, essentially. Unless the patch bays are 300 feet from the console then the unbalanced issue should not be a problem if every thing is wired up good.
I mean if insert points to patch bays sonically degraded the signal to ANY noticable extent then do you think ANY pro studio would set things up this way. Why would you limit your routing options.
All of the many studios you've worked at must have well to do clients if they dont mind paying for all the extra time it takes for you to go behind your racks and repatch the back of the units for every different signal chain you need.
I dont know ...... maybe you're using Berhinger patch bays ..... I have one BTW and 4 of the channels stopped passing signals within 6-8 months but hey ..... I got it for $12 on clearence.
I dont recall any piece of equipment that was recomended as best bang for buck by pros like Fletcher, Harvey Gerst, Blue Bear, a ton of people at Tape OP, etc .... that "sort of makes whatever goes through it muddy sounding."
Honestly ..... maybe you have a faulty RNC unit ...... thats possible ...... although I'm sure you have the technical know how to test that out and have done so extensively.
That said .... I agree that for the money the Composser is useful, and I still use mine a lot, but the RNC I feel is a much more versitle unit because of its smoothness and tranparency.
-mike
T
Tongi
New member
Thanks to Mike for your extensive comments. Nice to here the views of someone who owns and still uses both pieces.
But you mention the bass response problem with the RNC and it´s not the first time I´ve heard this.
At what point / frequency would you say that this becomes a problem.
I ask because I record mainly classical guitar which can be relatively gutsy in the bass. I often get a lot of peaks in the 80-150Hz area when recording.
But you mention the bass response problem with the RNC and it´s not the first time I´ve heard this.
At what point / frequency would you say that this becomes a problem.
I ask because I record mainly classical guitar which can be relatively gutsy in the bass. I often get a lot of peaks in the 80-150Hz area when recording.
S
SilverSurfer
New member
I've found the RNC doesn't handle kick bass that well either but for vocals and acoustic guitar, so far it's a great little compressor and I definitely feel like I got MORE than my money's worth on it.
Really Nice mode is superb!
Really Nice mode is superb!
tkingen
Djembes Rock
Tongi said:
If you are having trouble with those frequencies you may be having a problem with room nodes or modes. If so, a compressor could make the problem worse. Do you have any room treatment?
Terry
A
ametth
Sir Cool of Coronado
Blue Bear Sound said:Coming from someone who seems to be satisifed with Behringer gear, this comment is laughable.....
I'm done debating with you........
ahh, I dont feel like starting any trouble yet...
Last edited:
formerlyfzfile
New member
Tongi.....
I cant explain it very technically but I thinks its got to do with the amount of energy it takes to get low end at a certain level as opposed to higher frequencies. It takes a lot more to energy for lows than highs.
What I hear when I put a bass or kick through the RNC (or a 2buss mix) is that the low end triggers the compression much more and makes the cmpressor work much harder than it really needs to.
So its not that the RNC screws up the low end per se, its that the low end response of the RNC screws up the high end definition because it responds unevenly across the lower end of the spectrum.
I also have a classical and use the RNC for it somtimes and it sounds great...... not my playing or the guitar mind you (a beater student model that "ain't no cannon" as my instructor once told me) but the compression sounds pretty transparent.
Now, for me, I use very little compression, if any, for most of my classical guitar tracks ...... 1 or 2dB, just enough to tickle the lights occasionally.
But for acoustic rhythm tracks, where I tend to roll off the low end at the mic or pre, I find I can sit on the signal pretty hard and it sounds fine.
-mike
I cant explain it very technically but I thinks its got to do with the amount of energy it takes to get low end at a certain level as opposed to higher frequencies. It takes a lot more to energy for lows than highs.
What I hear when I put a bass or kick through the RNC (or a 2buss mix) is that the low end triggers the compression much more and makes the cmpressor work much harder than it really needs to.
So its not that the RNC screws up the low end per se, its that the low end response of the RNC screws up the high end definition because it responds unevenly across the lower end of the spectrum.
I also have a classical and use the RNC for it somtimes and it sounds great...... not my playing or the guitar mind you (a beater student model that "ain't no cannon" as my instructor once told me) but the compression sounds pretty transparent.
Now, for me, I use very little compression, if any, for most of my classical guitar tracks ...... 1 or 2dB, just enough to tickle the lights occasionally.
But for acoustic rhythm tracks, where I tend to roll off the low end at the mic or pre, I find I can sit on the signal pretty hard and it sounds fine.
-mike
M
Mosfet
Banned
formerlyfzfile said:
Let's just say I have put a few hours in at some nice places.
I can tell you one thing about good recording studios. They only use unbalanced connections when they must use a piece of unbalanced gear. Most good recording studios just don't use unbalanced gear. Yes, I have seen unbalanced gear used, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
Most consoles channel inserts are unbalanced connections. I was just talking to a buddy who owns a Neotek console, cause I never bothered to see if the Neotek even have channel inserts (they do), then asked him if they were two balanced send/return jacks. He stated the obvious, "Why would you need that? You can just have the outputs of the tape deck normal on the patch bay to the input of the console, thus cutting down on the amount of cable you have to run. Everybody knows that the shortest cable run you can achieve, and keeping it balance, is the quietest and best sounding way to go."
I can assure you fine gentlement (?) here that most nicer recording studios do not use the channel inserts on their consoles, instead opt to use dynamic processors between the tape deck output and the consoles Tape Return input. It is the shortest signal path, it is totally balanced, and the most efficient way to go.
If you don't believe me, start calling up some local studios that have Trident, Amek, Neotek, MCI, Sony consoles and ask them how they handle "inserts" while mixing. At the same time, ask them how many of their dynamic processors are used in a unbalanced configuration.
I think you guys are going to find that these nice studio are not using RNC's, because they can't use them balanced.Bruce, I "seem to prefer" the Behringer Composer for live use, yes, that is what I said, if my only other option is a RNC. In the studio, please hand on over anything Manley, API, Neve, Urei, Techtronix, Cranesong, Emperical Labs!
Somehow, you inferred that I am some huge Behringer fan out of what I have said. Simply, I stated that the RNC is "muddy sounding" when used live, and that I would not consider using the RNC in a studio environment because it is an unbalanced processor, which will never fit into my all balanced signal chain. Bruce, that is all I have said. Please go back and re-read what I have posted.
M
Mosfet
Banned
Big Kenny said:
I don't feed wild animals. But when a bear attacks, just start making a bunch of noise and they run away.
M
Mosfet
Banned
geet73 said:
Might be so, but I am hardly worried. I have produced enough bands to not worry about being poplular with what I say. I get the job done, and usually people wind up agreeing that I made very good choices, even after their initial disagreement with my choice. When all is said and done, you will find that all I have shared thus far is pretty valid info, along with exactly 1 opinion (The RNC makes the audio sound muddy).
I will not hold my breath that BlueBear has even done any meaningful "noise tests" on any gear. I don't know this for sure, but I get this impression from the many posts I have read from him that he is more interested in glossed over generalizations. I am just asking for the proof.
I gotta tell the truth here. I have never had a client say "Hey, where did that noise come from. And why does the audio now have artifical high end" after I have started to run the audio through Behringer dynamic processors. I haven't had other engineers ask that, nor producers. Maybe I have been lucky over the year and have never got a bad unit, but I have used literally hundreds of different Behringer peices over the years and I just haven't heard the stuff that only a few claim about high noise floors and artificial high frequiencies being added. I have seen large sound system companies with racks full of Behringer dynamic processors. Upon asking the FOH engineer what they think of them, they usually say "No complaints. It it effective gear".
Again, I am not a "Give me Behringer or give me death" type of guy, and certainly the Composer Pro isn't the most interesting compression, or most effective I have ever heard/used. But, it's bang for the buck in many uses is outstanding, and it is gear that is used professionally more than BlueBear seems to think.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
.......ametth said:
*yawn*
A
ametth
Sir Cool of Coronado
Blue Bear Sound said:
.......
*yawn*
T
Tongi
New member
tkingen said:
Thanks Terry.
I don´t have any room treatment at the moment, and you may be right but I know that my guitar is anyway quite strong in this frequency range and that the problem is compounded by the proximity effect as I like to use close miking albeit with a near coincident pair. However, I manage to keep the problem under control most of the time by careful playing / mic position etc but the last thing I want is for a compressor to add to the problem!
I´ll have to look into the room node thing but my room has an odd shape so it´s not so easy to calculate its resonant frequencies.
tkingen
Djembes Rock
Mosfet,
You quoted my comment about the artificial highend frequency deal, so I decided to add a little more to this thread.
If you want to use Behringer stuff, go ahead...but it's unbecoming to get your feathers rackled if someone disagrees with you. You are correct...lot's of FOH engineers use Behringer. You will find this mostly in local town professional companies. Why? It's cheap to replace, easily available, easily disposable if it breaks, and it does an adequate job, Ask them what would they would prefer to use, and they will most certainly give you a different answer.
As for the real deal pro live sound systems, you will not find Behringer in the live racks for the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Sting, Alan Jackson, etc. Same deal with the "big" recording studios. There is a reason for this...they want a certain quality and can afford it.
As for the artificial high end deal, that is my perception on my system and I stand by it. You should certainly stand by your perception and use whatever you want.
Regards,
Terry
You quoted my comment about the artificial highend frequency deal, so I decided to add a little more to this thread.
If you want to use Behringer stuff, go ahead...but it's unbecoming to get your feathers rackled if someone disagrees with you. You are correct...lot's of FOH engineers use Behringer. You will find this mostly in local town professional companies. Why? It's cheap to replace, easily available, easily disposable if it breaks, and it does an adequate job, Ask them what would they would prefer to use, and they will most certainly give you a different answer.
As for the real deal pro live sound systems, you will not find Behringer in the live racks for the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Sting, Alan Jackson, etc. Same deal with the "big" recording studios. There is a reason for this...they want a certain quality and can afford it.
As for the artificial high end deal, that is my perception on my system and I stand by it. You should certainly stand by your perception and use whatever you want.
Regards,
Terry
Last edited:
M
Mosfet
Banned
tkingen said:
I see that you are from the Northwest. Give Carlson Sound a call and ask them what was in the their processing rack just a few years ago.
M
Mosfet
Banned
I guess some of these guys can't afford whatever they want to use too?
http://www.behringer.com/04_ultranet/poweruser.cfm?lang=ENG
http://www.behringer.com/04_ultranet/poweruser.cfm?lang=ENG
M
Mosfet
Banned
I have had to fill some tech riders that ask for specific Behringer gear. I can't divulge the artists because of the contracts we signed, but a couple are bands you are probably heard on the radio.
Again, I seem to be getting the label of preferring Behringer over everything else. Man, to tell you the truth, there is a bunch of Drawmer/Symetrix/dbx stuff that I would grab for first!
The only preference I put in this thread was that I would prefer a Composer Pro over a RNC in a live situation. I also stated that I would never use a RNC in my studio work because it is unbalanced.
You guys sure know how to welcome somebody here!
Again, I seem to be getting the label of preferring Behringer over everything else. Man, to tell you the truth, there is a bunch of Drawmer/Symetrix/dbx stuff that I would grab for first!
The only preference I put in this thread was that I would prefer a Composer Pro over a RNC in a live situation. I also stated that I would never use a RNC in my studio work because it is unbalanced.
You guys sure know how to welcome somebody here!