Beginner Help

[TropicAllegro]

I'm only a sophomore in highschool so please understand my lack of knowledge.

I am in a horn driven rock band consisting of :
-vocalist
-guitar
-bass
-drums (maybe this information will help , I'm not sure)
-trombone
-trumpet
-tenor sax.
Anyway, we ( like ever other band our age ) want to be able to rely on ourselves to record a demo that doesn't sound as if it were meant to destroy your ear drums.

The equipment we have:
- computer
- Behringer Eurorack UB1222FX-PRO Mixer ( I'm aware behringer isn't amazing)
- 1 SM57 ( hopefully aquiring 2 more so we can have one for each horn at shows) 1 Beta SM58, and numerous other low end mics.
- low end monitor speakers
- trying different software like Cakewalk, Acoustica, and Adobe Audition

We have been running the mics into the mixer and EQing both on the mixer and the software and are not quite sure what steps are required to make the tracks sound more lifelike and professional. ANY help would be greatly appreciated. The sound of our band and what we are attempting to get closer to for recording is similar to this Streetlight Manifesto
Again, Any help and/or suggestions would be MUCH appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[bigwillz24]

Get a Ribbon Microphone for the horns (be careful with them they are delicate)...

Mostly all horns you hear are recorded with these mics.

I think Nady makes one for about $200.00

 

[TropicAllegro]

Thanks for your help, but I was wondering more about procedure for editing a track and different software tools you would use to make everything sound more professional. I have been told it might be the Behringer mixer not having very good mic pres and that could be why our recordings sound relatively hollow.

 

[ssscientist]

Get a Ribbon Microphone for the horns (be careful with them they are delicate)...

All respect, bw24, but I have to strongly disagree. Most horns are NOT recorded with ribbon mics. Especially with the Nady mic and it's tiny ribbon, one breath blast from a trumpet and you've got a paperweight.

TropicAllegro, you would do much better IMO to go with plain old SM57's or 58's for recording horns. The sax mic that I use most is the Sennheiser 421, but that's more expensive. And the 'hollow sound' is probably from the horns having to gather around one mic and not having a good mic collection to cover the rest of the instruments. I've used Behringer boards with some sucess and can pretty much guarantee that it's not the main problem with your recording setup.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Tropic,

While having "only" basic equipment does throttle one's ability to get a good recording, equally as important is tracking technique. There are some engineers (including a few on this board) who could make better recordings with your equipment than I could with a million dollar studio because they have experience and technique just like downtown.

There are some basic equipment upgrades I might also recommend that are a LOT cheaper than a ribbon mic (a couple of Sennheiser 421s and a Tascam 122 USb interface for a total of ~US$600 would take you a LOT farther in getting quality recordings with those horns than a US$2000+ ribbon mic going through your current setup would.)

But I suggest that before you spend another dime you take some time and expiriment with micing and recording technique. With the brass section you have some of the most interesting and most complicated instruments there are to record. Mic selection and placement on trombones and saxaphones and the like will without question make or break the sound of the recording, regardless of whether you're mixing through a Bheringer and SoundBlaster or through an SSL console.

There are a couple of excellent "sticky threads" on this board (including a great 27-pager on microphones and mic technique in the Microphones forum) that are a good place to start. I would also highly recommend heading down to your local Borders bookstore with a notebook and pen for one evening. Grab a copy of "Modern Day Recording Techniques" by Huber and Runstein from the Music section of the book racks. Take it over to the cafe area, buy yourself an over-priced but tasty Mocha Freeze as your payment to Borders for the use of the book for an hour or two, and sit down and read and take notes on the chapter entitled "Microphones: Design and Application". That chapter includes a truckload of excellent information on mic usage and placement in general and specifically for all types of instrments.

Getting the right capture of the sound at the source - meaning good mic technique - is the first and best way to get started down the yellow brick road of getting a good recording.

HTH,

G.

 

[ssscientist]

a couple of Sennheiser 421s and a Tascam 122 USb interface for a total of ~US$600

I've got the US-122 already, but can you tell me where to find Sennheiser 421's for $200/ea? That's one ROCKIN' deal!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I've got the US-122 already, but can you tell me where to find Sennheiser 421's for $200/ea? That's one ROCKIN' deal!

Doh! Yeah, I suppose you're right about that. I really have got to learn to take that needle out of ny arm before I type . Hey, I was only off by about $149 each. I suppose you could probably find some used ones at a decent price...

Nevertheless, even if we talked about a single 421 and the Tascam for a total of about US$549, I think the point still stands that it's much more bang for the buck in this stutation than getting a decent ribbon, which as you correctly pointed out earlier, is probably not the best choice for this app anyway.

I'd like to say that it was just a numerical typo on my part, but frankly I just spaced on the 421 price. Thanks for the correction, sss...

G.

P.S. Just totally kidding about the needle bit...

 

[fraserhutch]

All respect, bw24, but I have to strongly disagree. Most horns are NOT recorded with ribbon mics. Especially with the Nady mic and it's tiny ribbon, one breath blast from a trumpet and you've got a paperweight.

Well, I would actually have to disagree with this, insofar as trumpets go.

Jerry Hey et al typically use Royers. Trumpets will not ruin the ribbon - little air actually escapes the bell, and you wouldnever record that close to the mic anyways.

I'm a trumpet player and I use a ribbon all the time - I've never actually considered owning another type of mic for myself. Royer 121 is the "standard" mic of choice for trumpets (although I have an AES R84).

That said, saxes and bones are often recorded on other mics.

 

[TropicAllegro]

Thanks everyone, now that schools out I plan to experiment a lot more with techniques and assume it's just going to take more time for me to become comfortable with the programs so I know what I can and cannot do to overcome problems I have with quality.

Thanks again.

 

[bigwillz24]

Most horns are NOT recorded with ribbon mics. Especially with the Nady mic and it's tiny ribbon, one breath blast from a trumpet and you've got a paperweight.

I didn't say anything about close micing a horn with a ribbon

You should be at least three feet away from the horn....

Listen to any old jazz album the horn sound is more than likely a ribbon.

 

[punkin]

"Horn Driven" is cool in my book!

Post us a sample to let us hear it...tell us EXACTLY what you've got setup.

Now...the debate...ribbons or not...either way in my book. You should be able to get decent sounds with your set up. You descirbed a "hollow" sound that's what I'm interested in. SM 57's simply don't sound that way on their own. It takes placment and room acoustics to do that. You might be simply too far away but we need more info. .

Trumpets sounding hollow really bugs me...if the player is working a nice say...Bach Stradivarios Model 37 with a say... an Al Hirt Model "B" (screeeetch) a B7...mid range but...NO WAY hollow...it's gonna be BRIGHT, I don't care what kind of mic you're playing to. Hollow to me sounds like you're picking up the gym or other practice room and not enough players.

Tell us about the group...how many members...how did you mic'd them and did you track them simultaneously or did you track them seperately?

I really wanna help you with this...kids playing with brass and drums, really kicks butt!

 

[TropicAllegro]

Well what we've been using for a studio is a carpeted boathouse that has a main room ( roughly 20' by 10' ) for practicing and a roughly insulated smaller room ( roughly 6' by 6' feet ) for the recording. I have attached a gif picture of the set up. We have just been running the mic cables under the door to the microphones. I will have real photos later of the setup if you'd like.

I am in a horn driven rock band consisting of :
-vocalist
-guitar
-bass
-drums (maybe this information will help , I'm not sure)
-trombone
-trumpet
-tenor sax.

Thanks again.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Before everybody gets too hot and heavy into this whole ribbon thing, I'd like to illuminate two things;

- first, this young fella is going through the most basic of I/O gear. Putting a Royer into his current pres is tantamount to putting Goodyear Eagle GT tires on a Geo Metro. Yes, they'll be better tires, but most of their quality will be wasted on the platform. Better to spend a few hundred on upgrading the I/O path and on a microphone that can be used well on all the instruments he listed tha to spend a couple of grand for a mic that's going into entry-level preamp circuitry and is really only best for one or two of the instruemnts he has listed.

- second, and I think far more important, as Tropical himself advised us at the outset, he is writing us as a sophmore in high school. Not only is it unlikely that he, his parents, or even his school is going to have any use for the advice to use an $1100 microphone, it is put on us to get him to learn early on that in one respect there is no difference between musicians and engineers...in both cases technique is far more important than equipment (when he gets a little older he can learn a third adult discipline in which that can be said too ).

G.

 

[punkin]

Sorry...no attachments to be seen...

describe the lay out...horn section...mic(s)? How far away from the instruments? How do the horns sound all by themselves?

vocalist...mic? How do they sound...again all by themselves.

drums...mic(s)? yup...you guessed it...how many mics...how are they oriented... and how do they sound...all by themselves.

and then, how about that sound clip?

I'm assuming your mic pre-amps are all in the Behringer console. How many mics do you have and what are they?

 

[TropicAllegro]

Sorry I forgot to attach the picture after I wrote the last message.

Here's a link to the Diagram

We usually have the horns stand 1 to 2 feet away from the mic.

The reason there is no audio clip is because they're so embarassingly bad we just scrap them, plus the studio isn't at my house so I don't have the equipment on hand ( plus our computer's disc drives are being difficult and aren't being read by the computer so I cannot burn a copy). Sorry about that but I'll try to get you a sample within this week depending on how busy I am considering school just letting out.

If i missed any important details by all means ask me.

Thanks

 

[fraserhutch]

Before everybody gets too hot and heavy into this whole ribbon thing, I'd like to illuminate two things;

No is getting hot under the collar, relax

- first, this young fella is going through the most basic of I/O gear. Putting a Royer into his current pres is tantamount to putting Goodyear Eagle GT tires on a Geo Metro. Yes, they'll be better tires, but most of their quality will be wasted on the platform. Better to spend a few hundred on upgrading the I/O path and on a microphone that can be used well on all the instruments he listed tha to spend a couple of grand for a mic that's going into entry-level preamp circuitry and is really only best for one or two of the instruemnts he has listed.

I don't think anyone is advocating he get a royer. However, there are budget reibbobns available that are quite good. And ribbons can be used on just about any source nicely. So, if he gets a nady, or an SP, or somesuch, then it would most likely be a nice addition at minimal cost.
I would never advocate this if it were'nt horn driven, btw.

- second, and I think far more important, as Tropical himself advised us at the outset, he is writing us as a sophmore in high school. Not only is it unlikely that he, his parents, or even his school is going to have any use for the advice to use an $1100 microphone, it is put on us to get him to learn early on that in one respect there is no difference between musicians and engineers...in both cases technique is far more important than equipment (when he gets a little older he can learn a third adult discipline in which that can be said too ).

G.

There is validity here. However, I was primarily responding to the to the statement that "most horns are NOT recorded into ribbons", when I believe the reverse is true

That said, I have recorded horns with dynamics and LCs, and have been recorded that way, so it's all good.
So, and SM57/58 would be a decent start, if a ribbon is a no-go.

My $0.02.

 

[bigwillz24]

I agree that I'm agreeing...

 

[bigwillz24]

On to the question at hand....

What kind of sound card are you using?....

Did you set the levels (gain stage) before you recorded or did you just press record and go?

How are you getting sound from the source into the computer?

?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm wearing a T-shirt!

Frasier, no hot collars here...I just put up my air conditioner today

Nor was I necessarily responding directly to you as I was to the general trend the thread had started taking. Somebody did in fact mention a Royer; and while I agree that is a wonderful mic, I thought (just a personal opinion) that idea was a bit over the top budget-wise for this situation. That idea was also part of a series of posts that appeared to be starting to turn this thread into a ribbon vs. dynamic vs. condensor argument typical of some of the louder threads often found in the microphone forum of this board. I was - perhaps pretentiously and wrongly - trying to steer Tropic clear of those kind of turf battles until he got his feet wet in this forum a little better.

I must admit that I am not that familiar with the lower-cost ribbons you mention; those may indeed be a worthy alternative. I'll have to educate myself on those better, perhaps rent one or two to get some trial runs under my belt. I'll pop a question or two into the mic forum regarding this so I can find out more for myself.

Now, time for me to have a look at Tropic's diagram...

G.

 

[bigwillz24]

Have you tried recording in the big open space at all?