Bass issue making me crazy...(phase related)

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stash98

New member
I have a Tech 21 sansamp.

I plug my bass into it. I then take 2 cables..one is the direct out from the DI. I put that into my Firebox.

The other cable goes out of my parallel out jack on the tech21. I send that into my guitar pedal board and distort it a hair with the TS9. From there it goes into my amp and is picked up by an Audix I5 about an inch off the grill.

The mic goes into my Joe Meek pre. The joe Meek pre goes into my Firebox line in for D/A and there we are - 2 bass tracks recording at once.

So how in the hell do I get the phase aligned right? It sounds easier then it is...the reason is because the transients are much different on each track, so peaks happen on the amp track where they don't on the DI'd one. Are there any tricks I can apply in the daw?

I was thinking maybe at the end of the track to pull out the guitar cable and try and make some real sharp transients that way...I don't know how else to do it..is there a better way?

This is making me crazy!! :mad: :mad:
 
you've got a delay happening--the DI signal reaches the DAW before the amp signal does.

well, the simple solution is to line up the waveforms in the DAW. be aware that doing it solely by sight (lining up the peaks) may not turn out the best result--you need to do it by ear.

another solution is to use an IBP (i think it's made by little labs), put it in line with the DI and adjust til it sounds right with the amp track.


cheers,
wade
 
yeah..thats where I'm at. I know the delay is there and I have to line it up and then finetune by ear.

What im saying is the transients don't spike the same way when you look at them in the DAW. The wavforms are not similar, so I can not tell the true starting point of the transient. So I can't even get close when I line them up.

So thats my issue. I need to know how to get a clean spike on each track or something..I don't want to buy an IPB..I know that people have been doing this before the IPB came out so there must be other techniques to get the phase right.
 
after you track a small one or two minute section, play them in a loop and adjust the lagging track until with the DAW's track timing causes you to get maximum signal on an rms meter, that should get you in the ballpark or better. then take note of the compensation time an put a delay plug in the insert of the faster one so you can track and hear them both correctly. You can get a plugg that will do this in milli- seconds or by sample count at voxegno.com.

no guarntees , just a thought!

:D
:D :D
:D :D :D
 
Yup...line up the wav forms. Zoom in reeeaaally close and drag the mic'd wav to line up with the Di'd wav. Make sure that if your software has a snap to grid function that it is turned off.

Ford Van has a good point...but I'd suggest you get the wave forms lined up perfectly first...then experiment with offsetting them.
 
Line up to what? The wave forms will look TOTALLY different. Also, it isn't so much a matter of anything LOOKING "right", it is a matter of it SOUNDING "right". Since the tones are totally different, no matter where you move the tracks in the time line, you will create some kind of phase cancellation and phase coupling. What is very important is how you want the combined tracks to sound. Without figuring that out, everything else is just pure crazy talk! There is truly no "right" way to align the tracks.
 
Zed10R said:
Yup...line up the wav forms. Zoom in reeeaaally close and drag the mic'd wav to line up with the Di'd wav. Make sure that if your software has a snap to grid function that it is turned off.

Ford Van has a good point...but I'd suggest you get the wave forms lined up perfectly first...then experiment with offsetting them.
Click to expand...


This is where my issue is. I'm not even in the ballpark yet for using my ears to get it just right. I zoom in really close, but you have to understand that the transients on an amp track are not the same looking as the ones on the DI.

So once you get in close, it is about impossible to see where the note is initially being struck.

My friend said he used a 1k tone he would send through the amp, but that still didnt give him the needed transient spike to make lining up the tracks easier.
 
Ford Van said:
Line up to what? The wave forms will look TOTALLY different. Also, it isn't so much a matter of anything LOOKING "right", it is a matter of it SOUNDING "right". Since the tones are totally different, no matter where you move the tracks in the time line, you will create some kind of phase cancellation and phase coupling. What is very important is how you want the combined tracks to sound. Without figuring that out, everything else is just pure crazy talk! There is truly no "right" way to align the tracks.
Click to expand...


this is a great point...its tough though because your mind will play tricks on you and everything sounds "phasey".
 
stash98 said:
This is where my issue is. I'm not even in the ballpark yet for using my ears to get it just right. I zoom in really close, but you have to understand that the transients on an amp track are not the same looking as the ones on the DI.

So once you get in close, it is about impossible to see where the note is initially being struck.

My friend said he used a 1k tone he would send through the amp, but that still didnt give him the needed transient spike to make lining up the tracks easier.
Click to expand...

Forget peaks.

Concentrate on where the signal passes through zero.

At the beginning of the track you have the very first attack on the first note.

Start there.
 
c7sus said:
Forget peaks.

Concentrate on where the signal passes through zero.

At the beginning of the track you have the very first attack on the first note.

Start there.
Click to expand...
Can't put it much simpler than that!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to c7sus again.
 
c7sus said:
Forget peaks.

Concentrate on where the signal passes through zero.

At the beginning of the track you have the very first attack on the first note.

Start there.
Click to expand...


you do...and you don't.

Basically, Ford saying how the waveforms are completely different is showing me he knows this issue. I have aligned tracks to sart at zero many times...but in this case, you do not get a clear starting point on the amp track..the more you zoom in, the more little tiny points appear of where the track could start.

The DI track comes in on time (i track through a DI all the time), but I notice that I am moving the amped track BACK because thats how different the 2 tracks look.

maybe i could mute the strings and attack them real hard at the end of the song..maybe unplug the guitar at the end for a spike..I hear that is an old trick..it's a pain in the A right now.
 
iqi616 said:
Can't put it much simpler than that!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to c7sus again.
Click to expand...


honestly, if it was that simple, I would not have made this post.. :) , it's not that easy to see where the amped track starts.
 
You need to read my whole post again! What they look like makes absolutely NO difference. Start using your ears. If advancing the track a bit makes it sound better, then great! If leaving it alone is the best sound, then leave it alone. Don't make your decision based on what you see, ONLY based on what makes it sound best.
 
Ford Van said:
You need to read my whole post again! What they look like makes absolutely NO difference. Start using your ears. If advancing the track a bit makes it sound better, then great! If leaving it alone is the best sound, then leave it alone. Don't make your decision based on what you see, ONLY based on what makes it sound best.
Click to expand...

IOW, if you're painting a picture, use your eyes. If you're recording audio, use your ears.

I think you may be on to something!
 
So what you are saying is that if I got a clean transient on each track it still wouldn't matter?

So the only solution is to slide the amp track round until it sounds best.......there has to be a better way.
 
while I don't always agree with what Ed has to say (which i almost always keep to myself :D), he's 100000% right here. you can NOT use your EYES to do this. you NEED to use your ears. I said as much in my original reply.

all you need to do is move them around until they sound right. i'd leave the DI track in place and fidget the amp track, but that's me. personally, really, i'd pick up an IBP and just get it right when tracking.....but that's me. i don't like having to do surgery like this in a mix--i prefer getting things right when tracking. the fewer decisions i have to make in a mix, the better.

there's no other way to get your ears to a point where they can learn tell what's right other than just doing it. welcome to what separates the men from the boys (or the pros from the non). ;)

if you can't manage to get em to sound right, just don't use one of the tracks. it's that simple.


cheers,
wade
 
Ford Van said:
You need to read my whole post again! What they look like makes absolutely NO difference. Start using your ears. If advancing the track a bit makes it sound better, then great! If leaving it alone is the best sound, then leave it alone. Don't make your decision based on what you see, ONLY based on what makes it sound best.
Click to expand...


As FV rightly points out, you can't hear with your eyes! Ther are two issues here :

1) the few milli-secounds it takes the amp sound to reach the mic is causing the track with that bass sound to be behind the other one.
this causes comb filtering and is a phase issue. the comb filtering will cancell out and cause dips all along the spectra and should lower the output level. Thats why I suggested a loudness measurement (rms) because at the point of the least amount of comb-filtering should result in the greatest level output.

2)both sources have a different eq and since the sources don't have the same spectrum, there's probably comb-filtering and cancellation going on.

Don't get all scientific about it(do as I say :p :p !!)


Just use your ears!!!!!! :)

:D
:D :D
:D :D :D
 
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stash98 said:
there has to be a better way.
Click to expand...
yep, there is.

1. use an IBP when tracking and get it right then.

or

2. figure out how much of a delay there is between the amp and the DI track and put a delay inline and delay the DI track so it matches.

or

3. just don't use one of the tracks.


cheers,
wade
 
ez_willis said:
IOW, if you're painting a picture, use your eyes. If you're recording audio, use your ears.

I think you may be on to something!
Click to expand...


Apparently there's a new movement in audio to use your eyes and forget your ears. I've got a bunch of noobs over at tweakheadz and they're trying to get the master volume just right and they're all complaining that they can't tell what's going on because the meters don't exactly tell them where they're at. I mentioned to them that they may want to use their ears and they all told me I was insane that the meters are the only way to know if they've got their mixes loud enough. I said they should just consider learning their set up and use your ears and none of them want to hear it, they want the meters to tell them what volume the song needs to be at. Crazyness I say.
 
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