basic faders

[Jerry Kahn]

I am going to get either a stand alone recorder or a new computer recording setup for my home studio. I am definitely going to have faders this time around-- no more mouse mixing for this daddy-o.

Never having used faders, except on my old analog mixer, I don't really understand how this whole fader thing works with digital, specifically the motorized vs. non-motorized thing. Uh, let me amend that a little: I THINK I understand how the motorized ones work-- they just go up and down by themselves and always reflect the current level? And when you move them, that (automation?) gets recorded. I think.

But how do non-motorized faders work? And how much of a negative is that for the home-recordist?

Thanks!
jk

 

[HearClear]

A board with automation is going to cost you some big bucks. And do you want to know how the signal path goes or how to set levels and mix with manuel faders?

 

[Jerry Kahn]

I guess it's involved, but I could use a basic primer.

 

[HearClear]

Well, setting mic levels is good with faders, but to get better sounds you'll want to use an outboard mic preamp. If you don't have one your boards preamps are fine. As far as mixdown automation is nice cuz you can save your mix. And if you need all your drum tracks turned up or down a little you can buss those to a group fader and it will move all the drum track faders the amount you've moved the assigned fader.

 

[Jerry Kahn]

HearClear: I actually do happen to have a good outboard mic pre (Vintech)and a good mic (Neuman TLM 103). Unfortunately they are sort of useless without a good recorder, but I keep on putting off buying one and end up getting some other piece of gear for some odd reason. I think I am just afraid of committment-- there are just so many recording options out there!

Here's the truly basic fader question: what exactly is "automation". Does it mean that I am saving the movement of the faders seperately, without altering the audio data (that is sort of the impression I am under). And can you have "automation" with manual faders?

Sorry about all these stupid questions.

OK, one more-- you say "mixdown automation is nice cuz you can save your mix." Do you mean without physically altering the audio?

thx,
jk

 

[Cyrokk]

OK, one more-- you say "mixdown automation is nice cuz you can save your mix." Do you mean without physically altering the audio?

thx,
jk

If I am reading your question correctly, then i think you may be a little confused as to where the function of the mixer lies during mixdown.. Once your tracks are recorded on a multi-track recorder then the outputs from the recorder are plugged into the inputs of the mixer.. the output of the mixer is then plugged into the master device, usually cassette, DAT or a CD burner.. Manipulating the mixer does not alter the original source of audio, i.e. in the multitracker.. it does however alter the audio signal as it travels to its final destination-cassette, DAT, or CD.. In the end you will have two sets of results: the unaltered audio from the multitracker.. and the mixed audio master on cassette, DAT, or CD.

Automated mixers only keep track of fader levels.. they do not keep audio signals.. If you save a particular setting in an automated mixer.. then upon recall it will automatically move those faders in the positions you designated.

Hope this helps..

Cy

 

[Tekker]

I think I'm a little confused too.....

Are we talking about an analog mixer or a controller that controls the volume on your DAW? (ex. PARIS or Cakewalk with the Peavey contorller)

Here's the truly basic fader question: what exactly is "automation". Does it mean that I am saving the movement of the faders seperately, without altering the audio data (that is sort of the impression I am under)

Yep, you're under the right impression. Automation on the DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) is where you move the faders as the song is playing and it saves just the volume fader slides. It has no effect on the actual audio clip itself, just how the clip is played back. So if you were to move the sound clip to a different track (that didn't have automation on it) it would playback normally, but then if you were to move it back to the track with the automation saved on it, then it would change volume as the faders moved up and down.

And can you have "automation" with manual faders?

Yes on a DAW you can, (you don't even need faders) you can have automation just with using the mouse too. There is an automation switch on the DAW which allows any movement by the faders (either via a mouse or a controller) to be recorded.

I think I am just afraid of committment-- there are just so many recording options out there!

I have Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 (which now goes for about $180, GREAT BUY at that pice) and at the time I bought it, it was around $350 (or more....can't remember) and I have NEVER regretted the purchase. I think that Computers are the way to go personally, but hey, that's just me. But ya gotta get somethin' man, what good is a TLM 103 gonna do ya if ya got nothin' to record it on? Just buckle down, commit, and don't look back.

*HINT* - Try downloading some demos of different recording softare before you buy them and find out which one suits you best.


Good luck,

-tkr

 

[HearClear]

Man, if you got the money to consider an automated board nice mic preamps and you're buying neuman mics, get the outboard recorder. You can pick an xt20 adat on ebay with a few hours on the heads for around $1000. And if you really want a computer program then you should hear some stuff thats been recorded on protools 5.1. I have a friend who has it and he just records his friends. I get really jelous when I here his recordings, they sound amazing!

 

[Jerry Kahn]

Cyrokk/HearClear/Tekker--thanks!

I think I wanna get MOTORIZED faders. I just WANNA!! Period!! Uh, I think.

With regards to the whole computer vs outboard debate Im leaning towards a DAW like the Yamaha AW4416. Seems it's just simpler.
Won't have to worry about piecing together a PC/soundcard/mixer package, and won't have to troubleshoot it everyday when I boot it up and need to record something.

I believe that the glitches will be less stenuous with MAC than PC, but a Mac solution is much more expensive. Mac tools are superior no doubt. I'm an old MAC/AudioMedia III guy and had been running PT 16bit AND Digital Performer, but I ran out of disk space, and then started this never-ending quest for a new 24 bitrecording solution .

MAC prices haven't come down as I was hoping they would in this current economic downturn. I obsessively recheck applestore.com G4 prices: they don't budge. No dealer discounts on MACs, so Steve Jobs et al have u and me by the balls. I figure it will be about 5K+ to get a decent Mac-based setup. Of course the advantage there is expandability.

PC's seem to have cheapened a bit recently. But I still will need to buy and sync to an external mixer, worry about latency, BIOS settings, other inevitable glitches.

Anyway, I'll just sell the DAW if I don't like it. But the standalone unit presents another advantage, which is portability.
I can also stick Apogee converter cards in there I hear if I want better AD/DA.

Wow-- I could just go on and on. Me? Obsessed? NAH!!!

rgds,
jk

 

[signpainter]

I suggest you check out the Paris Pro 3.0 system with the C-16 control surface......I just went through the same thing you are,(I cant afford a full on Pro Tools solution, so the Paris fit my needs. ) trying to figure the best way to go, and get the best bang for the buck..I decided that the Paris solution was the best (for me) for what I was looking for in a combination between all pc and all analog...and it is very expandable and the dsp cards supply the brunt of the computing power, so your pc can do other things. Check out www.emuparis.com, you can check out the paris newsgroup from there too.

 

[Jerry Kahn]

thx signpainter. I have read lots of good things on this board about Paris. Must admit, it looks tempting. I'll check out the prices. So you got it?

 

[signpainter]

yep, I just got it, but, I don't have my new computer yet to run it!!!! but, i did do tons of looking around and this looked the best for my needs.....

 

[Jerry Kahn]

Can I use an external reverb fairly easily with it? I have a Lexicon PCM91 which I would hate to have go to waste.

 

[signpainter]

yep......no prob on the ext effects......download their maunual (.pdf), it'll be pretty helpfull.....

 

[Tekker]

PARIS 3.0!!

My friends dad got Paris 1.0 for $300 but that was only because the store was trying to get rid of it and plus he used to work there (but still that was cheaper than I got Cakewalk for at the time......grrrrrrrr). But anyway I didn't care to much for the 1.0 version (it sounded awesome, I just didn't like the audio editor) but I've been reading up on the 3.0 and they pretty much fixed all of my disslikes about the first version (one of my biggest concerns was not having the draw audio tool, but it's there in 3.0).

Paris 3.0 is the only way to go!!

-tkr

 

[Jerry Kahn]

Just for yuks I am 'auditioning' the Korg D1600-- I plan to return it to Sam Ash in a couple of days, for several reasons. 1) I can't really afford it right now @ $1600 2)- Im pissed off at the salesman because he assured me several times that it came with a CD burner, and it did not.

I tried recording some guitar/pod stuff tonight on it and it sounded excellent. Wow-- what a departure from 16bit Audiomedia III. The thing has a small touch screen, which really doesn't seem to add much value, because it looks like you'd just as well use the keypad. The faders (here we go again) are "touch-sensitive". I guess that means if you move them, they do something. Oh well... The editing seems to be there, I think, but it just not as easy as a program on a computer screen. I need to play with it some more.

On another note, I saw a fairly new Paris rig on sale on ebay, bidding at $3000. The auction finally closed and noone picked it up. Wish I could have. I think Im horny for Paris.. Hey, wasn't that a movie?

Au Revoir,
jk

 

[MrZekeMan]

Jerry,

My new is Roland VS-2480 is pretty nifty. It has the automated mixing too. Basically any thing that you can adjust during mixing can be automated. Fader settings, Mute, panning, surround mixing, eq settings, basically everything can be manipulated and automated through the automix.

You might want to take a look at the Roland. You can get one for about $3,200.

 

[Jerry Kahn]

Yeah, the Roland looked great-- I saw it in SamAsh. You can attach a monitor to it. I really liked that-- it looked alot like a decent audio software package might.

I also panted while checking out the motorized faders.

To keep beating the horse some more: I think it is finally beginning to dawn on me what motorized faders and automation are and what exactly they buy me. Correct me if I am wrong about this-- the Korg D1600 does not have motorized faders, so if I am playing with my mix, and I move a fader, in order to save that fade, I must be recording. Actually "bounce-recording" in Korg terminology. Otherwise all I am doing is raising the level for the entire track, beginning to end.

With motorized faders, it's much easier. If I want to make a level change, I just change it. And I don't have to be recording and worry about the destination tracks of each track I am adjusting the mix for. Automation means the faders moving by themselves. It also means the ability to add level adjustments without bouncing tracks. By George, I've got it!

It is much easier to manage. Much less technically involved. You save many steps: you don't have to set up the bounce tracks, then maintain as many sets of tracks. Also, if you screw up, its no big deal. I also understand that although straight bouncing of tracks does not degrade the audio, making a volume adjustment during the bounce does reprocess the audio, so the less of it you do the better.

This is at least in theory. I realize that to home recordists like me, degradation of this kind is less of an issue. But the ease of use and intuitiveness seems like a much bigger thing to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Jerry Kahn]

PS: Just for the record, the touch screen is a bit more useful on the D1600 than at first I thought. And the editing is quite a bit easier an more robust. And the unit sounds great! At least so far in my, er, "tests"... It's nice!

Here's a funny story. Yesterday, when I first did guitar recording on the Korg, I thought it sounded great-- a real departure from my old Mac/Audiomedia III/PT 16bit setup, I thought. Today I realized that I had been using the Korg in 16 bit mode! Oh well. I think that even the 16bit sounds excellent-- probably better AD conversion and processing than my older gear. Still, I better run an A-B just for kicks. So much of this shit is impressions, I guess. Until you really know what you are doing.

BTW, the Korg defaults to 16 bit, and can record 8 tracks simultaineously and play back 16 this way. If you reset it to 24 bit, the track count halves (to 4/8). Not so clear from their advertising! Still, I think it is really a good machine.

 

[Tekker]

....I think it is finally beginning to dawn on me what motorized faders and automation are and what exactly they buy me. Correct me if I am wrong about this-- the Korg D1600 does not have motorized faders, so if I am playing with my mix, and I move a fader, in order to save that fade, I must be recording. Actually "bounce-recording" in Korg terminology. Otherwise all I am doing is raising the level for the entire track, beginning to end.

With motorized faders, it's much easier. If I want to make a level change, I just change it. And I don't have to be recording and worry about the destination tracks of each track I am adjusting the mix for. Automation means the faders moving by themselves. It also means the ability to add level adjustments without bouncing tracks. By George, I've got it!....

Well I'm not to sure about the Korg, but automation on a DAW (computer) doesn't require a bounce-recording to record automation. You don't even hit the record button, you just press play and the "record automation button" (which "only" records the automation, not the audio) then you move the faders (via mouse or a controller) and it records it and plays it pack just the way you moved them, and if you don't like something that you did you can hit the button again and re-record the automation. It also has an automation editor that you can go in to, which brings up a list of all the volume changes and the times at which they occur. So you can delete and change the screw ups that way too in a very precise manner.

-tkr