Bands, Drummers & Click Tracks

[Track Rat]

With rare exceptions, most of the drummers I've encountered in my life (not you Rami) are dumber than a box of rocks. They can't tune their own drums. And rather than go through the audio root canal of trying to get them to play with a click, I never even bring it up anymore. Now if they ask for one, no problem, but I figure my job is to record the band, not throw extra monkey wrenches into the works. I consider it a success if they can all just get through the same tune, let alone tempo.

 

[Farview]

I think the click track for most things takes away from the ebb & flow of a song. Even the best drummers naturally sway from the tempo a little, and that's a good thing...It helps the song sound more natural, and less programmed...Music is all about feeling, and click tracks suck the feeling out of songs IMO....that is all.

You can change the tempo slightly for each part of the song. For instance, make the chorus 2 or 3 bpm faster than the verse, slow it back down for the bridge, etc... The idea is to do it on purpose, not by accident.

It's also pretty easy to push the click or pull the click to change the feel of the song. It just takes practice.


Yes, most of the drummers in local bands are dumb as a sack of hair. But ALL of the professionals that I work with use a click. The songs breath just fine.

 

[David M]

I usually use a click track when I record myself since I don’t have a band and I am having to record each instrument separately. But I would not knock a drummer or band because they want to record wild (i.e., without a click). It might make things a little tougher for the guy mixing and recording because he can't cut and paste and quantize everything. Tough shit for him (the band should not have to accommodate him). If the band feels more comfortable without the click track then they should not use one. I read an interview with Flea and he said that him and Chad Smith hate to use a click track, and don't. Are you gonn’a tell me these guys suck because they don’t use a click track. It isn’t going to kill the song if the tempo slightly varies throughout. The imperfections will probably even make it sound better. Can you even imagine the boys from Lynyrd Skynyrd playing Free Bird in the studio to a freak’n click track? I use a click track only because it makes it easier for me to record everything. I wish I didn’t have to. It is a more of a crutch I think.

 

[RAK]

Bascially I think it depends on the musicians and the style of music. I've recorded bands that couldn't get it together at all with a click, so we just scrapped it. The tempo wasn't completely constant throughout the tune of course, but at least they fluctuated together. I've done other sessions where the band wanted a click, and they stayed locked in during the entire tune. One time I used a drum machine that I (as the engineer) manually started the faster tempo in the middle of the song.
When I did the ABBA cover band (this was a live show) that included a live drummer and live vocals, but the rest of the "band" was a CD, the drummer had a click in one side of his phones to help him stay together.
But any time I've worked with actual talented musicians, who've been playing together for a long time, they just get up and play, no click necessary. If your internal metronome works, you don't need an external one.

Sometimes a little natural tempo fluctuation is a good thing. On the other hand, if you know what you're doing, you don't need a metronome of stay consistant. That doesn't mean it doesn't help though.

In terms of programming tempos, you could also look into something like the Dr. Beat 88 (there are other models too). You can create programs anyway you like and patch that into your interface.

 

[RAMI]

With rare exceptions, most of the drummers I've encountered in my life (not you Rami) are dumber than a box of rocks.

Hehe...No, I'm that dumb too.

But seriously, I can understand where you're coming from as an engineer making a living. You're not going to start refusing business because a drummer can't or refuses to play with a click.

But, generally speaking, a good drummer shouldn't have problems playing to a click or drum machine beat. If he or she can't, then they need to practice more. But, like I said, the drummers that say they can't groove probably only tried a few times. I'm lucky to have had a teacher when I first started that made me do all my rudiments, reading and exercises to a metronome. It doesn't ruin my "feel" at all to play to a click. And the advantage to that is when I play live, I can still rock out without ruining the tempo of a tune by speeding up and slowing down drastically.

 

[treymonfauntre]

Random? Are they making it up as they go along? If they play the song the same way every time, it isn't random. It's a pain in the ass, but you can map it out.

Most of the time progressive music doesn't have a lot of actual tempo shifts. There is a lot of half time, double time, straight time and time signature changes that make it seem like the tempo changes when it doesn't.

For example: going from 4/4 to 6/8, you would give the drummer an 1/8 note click. He can shift freely between the two time signatures and it seems as if the tempo changes. It doesn't.

yea this is definitely true, it does work out sometime for me

 

[Farview]

When I did the ABBA cover band (this was a live show) that included a live drummer and live vocals, but the rest of the "band" was a CD, the drummer had a click in one side of his phones to help him stay together.

Is that the ABBA tribute with Mike Sigman from Piano man? If it is, I did those backing tracks.

 

[Farview]

I read an interview with Flea and he said that him and Chad Smith hate to use a click track, and don't. Are you gonn’a tell me these guys suck because they don’t use a click track.

I'll bet you that if they had to, they could play to a click quite convincingly. I can't tell you how many times I have people tell me things like "well, Pete Townsend said this" or "Flea said that". Every time I get a chance to talk to the rockstar in question, I ask them about it. You wouldn't believe how many times they don't remember saying something like that, or have changed their mind in the 15 years since they made that glib comment in some interview. BSSM was released 15 years ago, Californication came out 7 years ago, a lot has changed since then. Basing your decisions and attitudes on the outdated off-the-cuff comments of a few stoned rockstars isn't a great idea.

It is never about the engineer, however, the band needs to be good enough to not need any copy and paste maneuvers.

 

[RAK]

Is that the ABBA tribute with Mike Sigman from Piano man? If it is, I did those backing tracks.

I have no idea who they were. I don't remember the name of the act. It was two guys and two girls who sang, plus the drummer. I'm pretty sure they were touring around nationally, with their own FOH and Monitor engineers, so it was an easy gig for me. In fact, I don't think they were American (maybe Australian, but don't quote me on that one)
One of the the guys played acoustic guitar (even when there was electric in the mix) and the other guy stood in front of a keyboard that wasn't even on (although we hooked it up through some DIs so it looked real on stage). What really got me was the bass in the mix, yet mysteriously no bass on stage.

Were the tracks you did real instruments or MIDI?

*edit*I found the press release from last year's season, looks like the revue was just called "Abba Celebration." People loved the show though.*edit*

 

[David M]

Basing your decisions and attitudes on the outdated off-the-cuff comments of a few stoned rockstars isn't a great idea.

Give me a break. I was citing one example, not presenting my entire case. I do what works best for me and don't worry about what other people think - Especially sound engineers. Opinions are like assholes. I agree that a good drummer or band should be able to play with a click track. But a really good drummer or band should not have to. And, by the way Flea was talking about the new album that came out this past year. Although I think it irrelevant. I suppose you think Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin would sound so much better if they were recorded in protools to a click track, but I think they sound great the way they recorded back then - even without a click track.

 

[Lexus507]

On my bands latest little home project we went ahead and used a click for the first time ever...let me tell you it took some getting used to. We are a very dynamic band that has a bad habit of speeding up or slowing down with the volume flucuations. When we were tracking drums it was hard for the first day. We got one of our tracks down but the second song was giving us fits with the click track so we stopped for the day. We came back the next day and nailed it on the first take. I have a feeling that our day of headaches will pay off with the ease of editing. I will post in this thread after we put together our working tracks. Our drummer is very good and has lots of classical training playing all sorts of percussions with conducters and click tracks during practice but he hadnt really used a click ever in a rock setting. My bet is any half good drummer after 2 days of practice with a click can use one without too much trouble.

 

[ocnor]

I read an interview with Flea and he said that him and Chad Smith hate to use a click track, and don't. Are you gonn’a tell me these guys suck because they don’t use a click track.

The reason they suck has nothing to do with a click track. Anybody that would take advice from a guy named Flea needs a blanket party.

 

[David M]

The reason they suck has nothing to do with a click track. Anybody that would take advice from a guy named Flea needs a blanket party.

You mean the Chile Pepper's suck? Boy do I feel embarrassed. I have actually been a fan of them for 25 years and never knew. You need to inform more people of this! These guys are actually being featured in all kinds of magazines and instructional videos and Flea has become one of the most influential and praised bass players in rock. You need to get the word out about how much they suck and stop all this madness.

 

[soulfulvirtuoso]

Random? Are they making it up as they go along? If they play the song the same way every time, it isn't random. It's a pain in the ass, but you can map it out.

Most of the time progressive music doesn't have a lot of actual tempo shifts. There is a lot of half time, double time, straight time and time signature changes that make it seem like the tempo changes when it doesn't.

For example: going from 4/4 to 6/8, you would give the drummer an 1/8 note click. He can shift freely between the two time signatures and it seems as if the tempo changes. It doesn't.

This is very true. Even i tend to do them a lot (atleast during songwriting process).

 

[soulfulvirtuoso]

Wonderful insights all!

..But still Jeff Porcaro not using clicks mostly on his recording session eras still amazes me. Consistent, powerful, and soulful groove & rhythm all the way... Click or without a click - it doesnt matter to him. Now that's one heck of a drummer!

Allow me to share Blue Bear's insight (from another forum)...

There's no real answer -- it depends entirely on the production, the band, the sound you're going for.

My preference is to tracka band without a click as much as possible.... I thin kthe feel of a band working off of each other's timing is a big part of the emotional impact of the music... but sometimes the band isn't tight enough with their tempo, and so the click is necessary.

Other times I know that the production may need a lot of edits or changes further on and again a click becomes necessary to ensure consistency.

Both with click and without are completely valid approaches... all depends on the context of the project.

 

[ocnor]

You mean the Chile Pepper's suck?

I'm sure they do but let's leave their sex lives out of it.

These guys are actually being featured in all kinds of magazines and instructional videos

So is Richard Simmons but you won't catch me "Sweatin' to the Oldies".

Flea has become one of the most influential and praised bass players in rock.

AAAHHH!! HAAA!! HAAA!!! stop it you're killing me! Where did you hear that? From Flea's mother? Examples of influential bass players would be: Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, John Paul Jones, John Entwhistle.

 

[David M]

I'm sure they do but let's leave their sex lives out of it.


So is Richard Simmons but you won't catch me "Sweatin' to the Oldies".


AAAHHH!! HAAA!! HAAA!!! stop it you're killing me! Where did you hear that? From Flea's mother? Examples of influential bass players would be: Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, John Paul Jones, John Entwhistle.

You're obviously smarter than the rest of us. Thanks for correcting me. I'll do my part. Next time a see a bass player magazine with Flea on it I am going to write a letter complaining. Please keep spreading the word. There are still a lot of dumb people out there that need you man. You also need to talk with Geddy Lee. In a 1996 interview in Bass Player magazine Geddy named Flea as one of his favorite bass players. Dude, the world really needs you to clear up this crap.

 

[RAK]

What, no Bootsie?

 

[David M]

What, no Bootsie?

You'd better run that by ocnor first.

 

[Track Rat]

Examples of influential bass players would be: Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, John Paul Jones, John Entwhistle.

There ya go!