Mixing down existing tracks to create room for new, replacement tracks without deleting

[DannyMcO]

Hi - forgive me if this is too remedial, but is there a particularly effective way to mix down multiple tracks into a single track, on the Livetrak, without going back to PC through (or using the Livetrak as) a DAW?

Here's my use case - I have a bunch of already-recorded tracks with stems that my band will be recording over, sometimes as many as 16 tracks per song. My band will be learning, playing/rehearsing with and ultimately recording over all the tracks in the original, building a "Ship of Theseus" as it were by replacing the tracks as we're able to make a go at them. My live room is physically separated from my computer, so I really want to keep all the workflow on the Zoom.

As an example, one of the tracks we'll be doing this with is King Crimson's "Starless". I have discrete tracks for click, drums, additional percussion, 4 separate guitar tracks, bells, 3 separate saxophone tracks, 2 separate Mellotron tracks and vocals, totalling 15 tracks. I have a Livetrak L-20 and a separate L-20 rack (one is in place with semi-permanently fixed cables, mics & stands in my live room, the other I use for gigs so I can minimize transfer time from home to gigs with duplicate, already packed mics, cables & stands), so in theory I *could* have all the tracks on one Livetrak and output it as a stereo track into the 2nd Livetrak, but to the extent that I can leave my devices in place and add/replace it would be preferable.

I would like to find a way where my band members can listen to the original tracks while playing and recording them, even if that means (in the "Starless" example) only doing it a couple of tracks at a time, but was hoping to find a way (using the guitar tracks in the above example) where the existing stems could be combined into a single track as the new ones are being re-recorded & added so that all the audio cues can remain intact as the replacements are happening, ultimately resulting in a single track made from all the original tracks which can be played against the uncombined, discrete replacement tracks in real-time, on-demand, on the Livetrak.

However, I realize it's possible that I'm making things unnecessarily hard on myself by trying to stay just on the one Livetrak.
But is it possible? If so, how?

And if I'm really better off hitting myself in the head with a rock, what's a better way to achieve what I'm looking to do? The individual audio tracks will ultimately be combined with video of each take, if that matters. Though probably not distributed, as I know Robert Fripp is particular about use of his copyrighted work.

 

[rob aylestone]

Do the other band members have a livetrack where they record - at home, I assume? It does seem a bit unwieldy? I guess you want them to record at your location - is that the idea? In my old band, the band leader was computerphobic - so his old reel to reels morphed into an Alesis HD24 but he was having similar issues to you - in the end he was sending the files to our guitarist, who just bunged them into his DAW and recorded the new track then emailed that back to the band leader, who replaced the duff track with the new one. He did it by making sure the track length was not changed, so it started at the right place to be in sync. Could you do a version of that - if the idea is for them to be able to record on their own - it would still end up back on the Zoom.

 

[Papanate]

Hi - forgive me if this is too remedial, but is there a particularly effective way to mix down multiple tracks into a single track, on the Livetrak, without going back to PC through (or using the Livetrak as) a DAW?

Here's my use case - I have a bunch of already-recorded tracks with stems that my band will be recording over, sometimes as many as 16 tracks per song. My band will be learning, playing/rehearsing with and ultimately recording over all the tracks in the original, building a "Ship of Theseus" as it were by replacing the tracks as we're able to make a go at them. My live room is physically separated from my computer, so I really want to keep all the workflow on the Zoom.

As an example, one of the tracks we'll be doing this with is King Crimson's "Starless". I have discrete tracks for click, drums, additional percussion, 4 separate guitar tracks, bells, 3 separate saxophone tracks, 2 separate Mellotron tracks and vocals, totalling 15 tracks. I have a Livetrak L-20 and a separate L-20 rack (one is in place with semi-permanently fixed cables, mics & stands in my live room, the other I use for gigs so I can minimize transfer time from home to gigs with duplicate, already packed mics, cables & stands), so in theory I *could* have all the tracks on one Livetrak and output it as a stereo track into the 2nd Livetrak, but to the extent that I can leave my devices in place and add/replace it would be preferable.

I would like to find a way where my band members can listen to the original tracks while playing and recording them, even if that means (in the "Starless" example) only doing it a couple of tracks at a time, but was hoping to find a way (using the guitar tracks in the above example) where the existing stems could be combined into a single track as the new ones are being re-recorded & added so that all the audio cues can remain intact as the replacements are happening, ultimately resulting in a single track made from all the original tracks which can be played against the uncombined, discrete replacement tracks in real-time, on-demand, on the Livetrak.

However, I realize it's possible that I'm making things unnecessarily hard on myself by trying to stay just on the one Livetrak.
But is it possible? If so, how?

And if I'm really better off hitting myself in the head with a rock, what's a better way to achieve what I'm looking to do? The individual audio tracks will ultimately be combined with video of each take, if that matters. Though probably not distributed, as I know Robert Fripp is particular about use of his copyrighted work.

I don’t see what your issue is with the Computer - rather than make your life difficult - track it into DAW and go at it - and move your computer into the room for Gods sake.

 

[DannyMcO]

Do the other band members have a livetrack where they record - at home, I assume? It does seem a bit unwieldy? I guess you want them to record at your location - is that the idea? In my old band, the band leader was computerphobic - so his old reel to reels morphed into an Alesis HD24 but he was having similar issues to you - in the end he was sending the files to our guitarist, who just bunged them into his DAW and recorded the new track then emailed that back to the band leader, who replaced the duff track with the new one. He did it by making sure the track length was not changed, so it started at the right place to be in sync. Could you do a version of that - if the idea is for them to be able to record on their own - it would still end up back on the Zoom.

Mixed capabilities and competency levels with the other band members, but I'm the only one with a PA and true multitrack recording (one of our members can get stuff into Logic, but it's with a single input interface, so anything multitrack is out of the question). So any recording would be at my location by default to begin with.

 

[DannyMcO]

I don’t see what your issue is with the Computer - rather than make your life difficult - track it into DAW and go at it - and move your computer into the room for Gods sake.

Thank you, @Papanate.

I'm really appreciate that you were able to so effectively, so precisely analyze room usage in my house, and that, from just that little bit of text in my OP, you were able to come up with a practical, supportive, polite, mathematically-based suggestion that fully takes into account the physical dimensions of the spaces and layout of my home, as well as the configurability of WIFI within it, the quality and quantity of literally all the existing computer and audio hardware I own, the myriad different factors surrounding how my band actually works - including how to keep all of them patient while I switch between standing playing a guitar and singing into a microphone behind a robust effects board and stopping to unstrap, step out and sit behind a computer at a desk which you seem to be assuring me that the room accommodates, all the while not drawing some kind of assumption that I am computer phobic or faulting me for my own requirements.

Oh, wait.

 

[rob aylestone]

I think we’re probably all thinking the same thing thing though. Your solution is a few quid spent and huge benefits. I made the choice with my band to use a hardware unit, and it was in addition to, not replacement of a computer. It could have recorded so well, but it was so much more simple and versatile to record in a DAW and slap the tracks into the machine. I think I do get your reasons for wanting to do it outside a computer, but even somebody with a one input interface can play back lots and record one?

We don’t mean to insult you, but the reason computers have taken over is the sheer quantity of benefits and low price of software and hardware.stand alone recorders force you into compromise. You’re having to look at track count and consider what to lose. I totally understand, but if you do an audit of features, benefits and disadvantages of each system on the market today, it’s very lopsided. This is exactly why I have not plugged in my hardware system since Covid. It was perfectly reliable and so easy to use. QLab, that I use for stage stuff DOES sometimes fail. Computers do, but the things it does outweigh the disadvantages.

No offence was meant, were just surprised and probably don’t understand why you are doing what you do. We don’t know the details, so to us, who are in ignorance of anything you’re doing, just fall back to our own background.

 

[Papanate]

Thank you, @Papanate.

I'm really appreciate that you were able to so effectively, so precisely analyze room usage in my house, and that, from just that little bit of text in my OP, you were able to come up with a practical, supportive, polite, mathematically-based suggestion that fully takes into account the physical dimensions of the spaces and layout of my home, as well as the configurability of WIFI within it, the quality and quantity of literally all the existing computer and audio hardware I own, the myriad different factors surrounding how my band actually works - including how to keep all of them patient while I switch between standing playing a guitar and singing into a microphone behind a robust effects board and stopping to unstrap, step out and sit behind a computer at a desk which you seem to be assuring me that the room accommodates, all the while not drawing some kind of assumption that I am computer phobic or faulting me for my own requirements.

Oh, wait.

Whatever - way to be sarcastic

 

[TalismanRich]

I read your post and was confused. Maybe I'm not clear on what your goal is here.

You want to keep the old files, plus mix them down, then add new tracks without deleting the originals? The best solution would have been to have multiple takes for each track, but the Livetrak doesn't support that function like the R24 does. I think the Livetrak, like the Tascam Model 24, is designed primarily for recording live performances, with the added capability to overdubbing. Unfortunately, it appears that to add the "live" functionality, some options were eliminated, one of which appears to be the use of virtual tracks.

I'm thinking that your best option would be to make a dup of the SD card, mix down the tracks to a stereo mix, and then cut new tracks while listening to the stereo mix as your reference. You've got 22 tracks to work with, so losing two wouldn't be a big loss. When it's done, you can delete the stereo mix and work with the new tracks if that is the direction you choose. If everything goes bonkers, you still have the original SD card with the original tracks.

 

[DannyMcO]

Whatever - way to be sarcastic

And way to be a condescending douche.

 

[DannyMcO]

I read your post and was confused. Maybe I'm not clear on what your goal is here.

You want to keep the old files, plus mix them down, then add new tracks without deleting the originals? The best solution would have been to have multiple takes for each track, but the Livetrak doesn't support that function like the R24 does. I think the Livetrak, like the Tascam Model 24, is designed primarily for recording live performances, with the added capability to overdubbing. Unfortunately, it appears that to add the "live" functionality, some options were eliminated, one of which appears to be the use of virtual tracks.

I'm thinking that your best option would be to make a dup of the SD card, mix down the tracks to a stereo mix, and then cut new tracks while listening to the stereo mix as your reference. You've got 22 tracks to work with, so losing two wouldn't be a big loss. When it's done, you can delete the stereo mix and work with the new tracks if that is the direction you choose. If everything goes bonkers, you still have the original SD card with the original tracks.

 

[AlanK]

I can relate, even though my/our usage is very non-pro and basic.. but I also prefer to use the mixer for the most part as my jam space is small.. so as Talisman wrote, can you not mix the recorded tracks down to a master, then when your'e ready to record overdubs or new takes on top of that, set your master to play/green, and whatever channels you want anew to record/red.. the only thing I'm still a bit confused on is do you afterwards still need the original master stereo track (as it would be overwritten if/when you mix down the newer recorded tracks to a new master but you could always rename the first master on the SD card). Alternatively, if you could master out the first recordings to another device, then plug that into maybe one of the spare stereo channels like 17/18 or 19/20 and set them to play while you record your new tracks...

 

[DannyMcO]

Part of my rationale for preserving the tracks lies in just the administration of restoring them should the need arise for whatever reason (of which there are several that could occur in my particular use case).

That sounds like the best way to go - I was hoping the Livetrak had some semblance of the R24's nondestructive multi-take functionality, but it seems like "shrinkflation" hits features on audio products the way it lowers quantity on grocery store items. Same price, less stuff.

Thanks for a thoughtful, appropriate response.

 

[DannyMcO]

I think we’re probably all thinking the same thing thing though. Your solution is a few quid spent and huge benefits. I made the choice with my band to use a hardware unit, and it was in addition to, not replacement of a computer. It could have recorded so well, but it was so much more simple and versatile to record in a DAW and slap the tracks into the machine. I think I do get your reasons for wanting to do it outside a computer, but even somebody with a one input interface can play back lots and record one?

We don’t mean to insult you, but the reason computers have taken over is the sheer quantity of benefits and low price of software and hardware.stand alone recorders force you into compromise. You’re having to look at track count and consider what to lose. I totally understand, but if you do an audit of features, benefits and disadvantages of each system on the market today, it’s very lopsided. This is exactly why I have not plugged in my hardware system since Covid. It was perfectly reliable and so easy to use. QLab, that I use for stage stuff DOES sometimes fail. Computers do, but the things it does outweigh the disadvantages.

No offence was meant, were just surprised and probably don’t understand why you are doing what you do. We don’t know the details, so to us, who are in ignorance of anything you’re doing, just fall back to our own background.

You didn't insult me, thanks.

My use case is more driven to a full band picking up tracks by playing against them for live performances than it is specific to recording, but where we can make videos of our rehearsals for our social channels and have multitrack audio that can be edited on a computer we can always bring the card to the PC.

But trying to keep 7/sometimes 8 band members engaged and present in a tight space while having me step out of my own rig to go back and forth to a computer for stops/rewinds/playbacks/overdubs simply wouldn't work in that room or under the circumstances in which my band operates.

Editing after the fact on PC is certainly something that will happen, but when it does it will be wholly separated from rehearsals we record and overdub live.

 

[DannyMcO]

I can relate, even though my/our usage is very non-pro and basic.. but I also prefer to use the mixer for the most part as my jam space is small.. so as Talisman wrote, can you not mix the recorded tracks down to a master, then when your'e ready to record overdubs or new takes on top of that, set your master to play/green, and whatever channels you want anew to record/red.. the only thing I'm still a bit confused on is do you afterwards still need the original master stereo track (as it would be overwritten if/when you mix down the newer recorded tracks to a new master but you could always rename the first master on the SD card). Alternatively, if you could master out the first recordings to another device, then plug that into maybe one of the spare stereo channels like 17/18 or 19/20 and set them to play while you record your new tracks...

That's a helpful, considerate idea, thank you.

Some of the stuff we are working on has a lot of tracks that may be tricky to nail down, so my hope would've been to have something like the R24 capability - whole band plays the song and compares to the originals on the fly, nondestructively recording until we get it right, whether the entire band needs to play through or it's just guitar vox horns or whatever re-recording an individual track for the (eventually replaced, track-by-track) master. The mixer is right next to me and I have the Zoom footswitch, so it's easy to record, overdub and play back individual tracks, but the way things are now, having a computer in the room won't work. The room's dimensions and layout, wiring and WiFi reception aside, going back and forth to a PC would absolutely murder our rehearsals. The band can bring it when we perform, but it takes us a lot of effort to get there, and damn if that journey isn't like shepherding cats when it comes to rehearsing. Shit goes downhill in a hurry if we aren't super quick and musically active between takes, listens and retakes.

And I'd really love to have comparison capability in real time, but it seems like that may be a bit of a pipe dream, so for now I'll probably just make copies to be kept elsewhere on the card or my PC.

Though I do own 2 Livetraks (one L20, one L20R), and our current setup would allow one unit to be balanced only semi-precariously in a gap in a road case with some rack gear in it, so in a pinch I suppose I can have one Livetrak with the original tracks playing out as a stereo mix into tracks 19 & 20 as a kind of artificial bus. I'd still have the ability to mute tracks selectively on one Livetrak's original stems, nondestructively, while recording fresh takes on the other Livetrak, at the sacrifice of unified, one button playback - unless maybe I use a splitter on the footswitch and use it exclusively for playback and recording (though that would require changing the settings on each device each time I wanted to switch from playback to record). Not optimal, but maybe closer to the R24 without using the Livetrak as an audio interface.

Alternately, I suppose I could split the PA output between the two units and use the original master purely for reference.

 

[TalismanRich]

Part of my rationale for preserving the tracks lies in just the administration of restoring them should the need arise for whatever reason (of which there are several that could occur in my particular use case).

That sounds like the best way to go - I was hoping the Livetrak had some semblance of the R24's nondestructive multi-take functionality, but it seems like "shrinkflation" hits features on audio products the way it lowers quantity on grocery store items. Same price, less stuff.

Thanks for a thoughtful, appropriate response.

It's not really shrinkflation. Different tools for different purposes.

The R24 is a portable recording "studio" that would be a mediocre mixer for a live band with only 8 inputs, one stereo output and no EQ. The Livetrak is a modern 16 channel live mixer with some recording capabilities. I'm sure Zoom could build something that carried all the capabilities of both devices, but it wouldn't be $900. You might be looking more at the $2-5000 range, like the Behringer x32, Midas M32, or StudioLive 32SC but even those are geared more towards live work, then dumping into into a computer later. You would just have more tracks to work with on a bigger mixer.

 

[jaygl]

Hi - forgive me if this is too remedial, but is there a particularly effective way to mix down multiple tracks into a single track, on the Livetrak, without going back to PC through (or using the Livetrak as) a DAW?

Here's my use case - I have a bunch of already-recorded tracks with stems that my band will be recording over, sometimes as many as 16 tracks per song. My band will be learning, playing/rehearsing with and ultimately recording over all the tracks in the original, building a "Ship of Theseus" as it were by replacing the tracks as we're able to make a go at them. My live room is physically separated from my computer, so I really want to keep all the workflow on the Zoom.

As an example, one of the tracks we'll be doing this with is King Crimson's "Starless". I have discrete tracks for click, drums, additional percussion, 4 separate guitar tracks, bells, 3 separate saxophone tracks, 2 separate Mellotron tracks and vocals, totalling 15 tracks. I have a Livetrak L-20 and a separate L-20 rack (one is in place with semi-permanently fixed cables, mics & stands in my live room, the other I use for gigs so I can minimize transfer time from home to gigs with duplicate, already packed mics, cables & stands), so in theory I *could* have all the tracks on one Livetrak and output it as a stereo track into the 2nd Livetrak, but to the extent that I can leave my devices in place and add/replace it would be preferable.

I would like to find a way where my band members can listen to the original tracks while playing and recording them, even if that means (in the "Starless" example) only doing it a couple of tracks at a time, but was hoping to find a way (using the guitar tracks in the above example) where the existing stems could be combined into a single track as the new ones are being re-recorded & added so that all the audio cues can remain intact as the replacements are happening, ultimately resulting in a single track made from all the original tracks which can be played against the uncombined, discrete replacement tracks in real-time, on-demand, on the Livetrak.

However, I realize it's possible that I'm making things unnecessarily hard on myself by trying to stay just on the one Livetrak.
But is it possible? If so, how?

And if I'm really better off hitting myself in the head with a rock, what's a better way to achieve what I'm looking to do? The individual audio tracks will ultimately be combined with video of each take, if that matters. Though probably not distributed, as I know Robert Fripp is particular about use of his copyrighted work.

To the OP,
There is a work around for what it is I believe u want to do...mix all of your recorded tracks down to the master track ( stereo) of the L20. Insert a USB drive in the back of the L20 and copy the master mix you just made to the thumb drive. You will have to prepare thumb drive as per the l20 manual...Next open a new project...same or new folder, and load the master onto one of the stereo channels of the project. You'll have all theother tracks open to record on. Rinse and repeat every time you fill the tracks. You can keep each mastermixdown( from the same project) separate, but the l20 only has 3 stereo channels, so you can only do it3 times ( per project as there are only 3 stereo tracks available)before getting into a DAW. As far as I know you can't do mono files the same way... if you want to do multiple stems from the same project you'll have to load each Master on the thumb drive then delete it from the l20 before you can mix down your next stem. And if you want monophiles to stay intact just load those on the thumb drive and load them on mono channels when you load your stereo tracks. Definitely not the easiest method and I wish Zoom would work on the L 20s bouncing capabilities however I use this method to recently record an entire album with my band all multitracked with up to 45 tracks on some songs all on the l20 before I took it into Cubase to mix. I recorded the drum tracks into folder one then dumped down each song one at a time to the master loaded it into folder 2, .laid bass tracks down in folder 2 then loaded drum files and bass tracks into folder 3 for guitar tracking, etc till Vox and overdubs were done. As long as you record each track from the start they will easily line up in your Daw. ...cheers and good luck!