bad phonecall

[Roel]

Just had a phonecall from the guitarist of the band for which I (partly) mixed the CD yesterday. After a 12 hours in a row mixing marathon, they listened to the mix at home, and complain about it being too flat and not consistant. What's to blaim for this?

The studio-engineer set up a basic mix, eq'ed drums where needed, compression where needed, and left me to set up the mix together with the band, then came back, setup the automation and recorded it to dat.

I could have said that I was not experienced enough to do this and rather had him doing it, but I don't know if it would've been better. (He always approved the mix when he came back in...) I also didn't know his monitors, but listened to alot of discs on them, while mixing, and it sounded way better, more power, less over-compressed,... Also, I didn't have to do all that much, mainly just cut out the annoying hum-kinda frequency on the bass and/or guitars where needed, play a little with panning during the song.

After the mixdown to dat, he transferred all of it to protools (digitally), and did some edits and some -primitive- mastering, just using a 3-band compressor, I think.

Anyway, I feel really bad, almost as if I screwed up my friends CD.(they'll probably go back to remix it, but it's gonna cost them another day at the studio extra.)

So, who's fault is this really? What do I do if they go back? Damn I'm screwed up. You really don't need this after such a long day...

 

[nwsoundman]

If you were happy with the mix prior to his mastering I would suspect his comp settings. You stated you A/B 'd it to cd's during the mix and liked the dynamics in your mix. If that is true get a CD of the unmastered project and take it somewhere else to get that done. Maybe he will remaster for no charge? Don't remix if he over comped your disk.

 

[Downside Studio]

Roel, ask them more specific what they mean, too flat can mean a lot of things....overcompressed, eq, effects use etc. Not consistant can also be in the performance, or heavily due to it. Don't feel bad, they can't have thought you would never make mistakes. Hey, this is your first time also.

My personal experience regarding dissapointed musicians is normally that they expect too much when going into a real studio. They think the equipment will make up for their flaws. They were there when you mixed it, when it was mastered, and they have to agreed with wat was send to DAT. If they didn't thats your first mistake.

Hey man, welcome to the engineering society. Cheer up.

(PS if your able, send me a copy by email, I will listen to it)

 

[Buck62]

Make sure that they listened to the mix on a decent source.

If they played it on some cheapo bookshelf-system stereo (with the EQ settings all screwed up), then they have to listen to it on a better system.

 

[sonusman]

I have yet to see a studio owner who didn't approve of a mix... The last studio I worked at, I could call up the most rubbish of mixes for him to hear (while the client was there) and he would always say, "Wow! Sound great guys!". So, NEVER assume the studio owner is telling you what he ACTUALLY thinks of a mix, unless he is being paid to produce the recording. Even then....

Next up - I agree with the advice above about getting a PRE-MASTERED copy of the mix to listen to. Without the benefit of knowing WHAT the mixes need for mastering it is very hard to go about mastering the songs. Some quicky mastering thing via ProTools can do more harm than good. If you all think the Pre-Mastered version of the mix sounds better, or not as bad, have it mastered elsewhere.

Next - If the band was, errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, "helping" you with the mix, take advantage of that fact here. Indeed, they were involved and have about as much 'fault' in it's outcome as you do. THEY approved of the mix before it was done.

Next - Welcome to the real world or mixing. Nowhere as easy as people think it is, even with "big time" gear available. You are "on the clock", and it sure seems to tick faster as the price per hour for the studio goes up... I am concerned though about some of the methods employed here. The "other" engineer setup the basic drum mix. Did you tweek that? Did you just leave it alone? I cannot imagine mixing a lot of tracks together and just leaving the drum tracks alone from some other guys settings.

You also said that your mixes were "more powerful", and "less over-compressed" than other disks to listened to. Hmmmmmmmmm.....How do those disks sound on other systems compared to yours? Also, were these disks using the same D/A converters in the studio that your mix was using? These disks enjoyed quite possibly some great mastering too. If these disks were playing through D/A's other than what you were monitoring your mixes through, well, your comparison was not valid by any means at all. I have actually been to studios were they had a CD player running back to the console at -10 and the DAT was running at +4. Boy, the DAT stuff sure sounded louder and more powerful in comparison with that +12 of gain it enjoyed!!!

Did you guys mix a whole CD in one 12 hours session? 1 song? 4 songs? How many?

So many questions here.

All in all though, chalk this up to a "live and learn". I have screwed the pooch on a few mixes by not knowing the room, monitors, and capability of the gear. Knowing the room and monitors though is the biggie here. Suicide trying to mix on monitors and a room you don't know. If you were using NS 10's with no Sub, that is the ultimate in suicide if you are not familiar with how a good mix should sound on them.

Usually, it is a very good idea to burn mixes as you go along and play them in a car stereo that you listen to a lot of music on. This will help you learn the monitors and the room a lot faster. If that studio didn't have a quick way to burn CDR's, then you should have requested a quick way to do it. Stand alone CDR burners are not that expensive, and every pro model has digital inputs that a DAT player could feed. If this studio could not afford to offer that, I would have mixed elsewhere, or purchased my own stand alone burner.

Plenty of blame to go around here really. Some for you, some for the band, some for the studio owner. Hopefully, you and the band learned from this.

Ed

 

[warlock]

So, NEVER assume the studio owner is telling you what he ACTUALLY thinks of a mix, unless he is being paid to produce the recording. Even then....

This is a big generalisation, I would always tell what I think of the mix

Next - If the band was, errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, "helping" you with the mix, take advantage of that fact here. Indeed, they were involved and have about as much 'fault' in it's outcome as you do. THEY approved of the mix before it was done.

I agree about this. If they were there, they were also listening to the mixing, why didn't they say anything about it then?

And my point is that it's impossible to get a mix that sounds equally good on all sources. If it sounds good on a great system and not so good on a piece of crap beachtaperecorder then would you remix it? I wouldn't .

Keijo

 

[Roel]

Ok... Just got an email of the bassplayer. He's happy with the mix. Sometimes it sounds a little 'sharper' than what they are used to, but the bass is still there. It could be better, but for just 4 days in studio it sounds pretty good.

He also said that the guitarplayer (the one that phoned me, which is a good friend of me, btw) was dissappointed, but that this would probably be because he doesn't really realize that it sounds better in studio than on a homesystem. (first time he ever was in a studio...)

So I really don't know anything yet. I didn't like him mastering it with his standard protools-plugin preset. (He didn't even check the settings!! ) So, I'll try to get the dat with me to go listen in another studio (downside?), and compare...

The band helping was mainly them sitting there to tell me which guitarpart had to come out more, and how much vocals they liked in the mix. And occasionally show them what I did with the eq to keep their confidence... I don't think they will blame me after all...

We mixed 7 songs in those 14 hours. Well, make it 10 hours, the rest is eating, doing some edits in protools, that 'mastering' , ... I did tweak the drums a little, but not very much. They sounded pretty good. And they still do, according to the bassplayer, except for the toms. Should've worked on that a little more...

And the monitors were emes-thingies. Sounded pretty good. Listening back the cd's (via other convertors, offcourse. ) on them was mainly to find out how the freq respons off the monitors was. I turned op the volume so that they sounded equally loud. These cd's had mastering probably, but some off them really had badly overcompressed kick and snares...

The standalone recorder/car stereo idea is very good. Altough I have to replace that tape-thingy in my car for it. Have to do that anyway.

This evening I'll get my own copy so I can judge it myself... I'm stressed.

 

[Downside Studio]

So, I'll try to get the dat with me to go listen in another studio (downside?), and compare...

You're invited to come and listen in my studio while comfortably relaxing with the joy of some 'borrelnootjes'.

Monitoring systems :

KRK V8 active biamp system
Tannoy System 12 with custom build amplifier
Spirit abs.II
(little BELL PA-system for band-rehearsel)

 

[Roel]

Thanks... I'll get back to you on this as soon as I find the time. And I'll bring a load of free chips.

 

[atomictoyz]

Bummer!

There are a couple of things I want to say that some probably not agree with but here it goes anyway.
There are alot of contributing factors to mixing songs that people tend to forget about.

1) If a band is currently playing live gigs, they will not contribute good things during the mixdown.

2) Just because someone owns equipment doesn't mean they know how to use it.

3 )Too much time listening can change your ability to actually hear.

4) Mixing is a talent, not a plug-in.

5) Mastering is a talent, not a plug-in

6) Please try to take first attempt without playing with the EQ's, balance as much of the natural frequency range as possible, then make small changes. ( I cringe everytime an engineer turns a parametric hard CCW after listening to the rhythm guitars for only 1/2 second before)

7) Let someone outside of the project listen to the "bands copy" and make comments on what they like and don't like.

8) Never mix if you have a sinus infection, cold or flu. Inflamed sinus' really screw up your frequency response.

9) Practice, get a cheap 4-track at home and tweak cassette copies to refine your ears.

10) Never let anyone convince you that something sounds good when your heart says it isn't.

Peace,

Dennis

 

[Downside Studio]

8) Never mix if you have a anus infection, cold or flu. Inflamed anus' really screw up your frequency response.

??

 

[Downside Studio]

The reply above made me an official 'junior member'........(applause, applause)

This one is going to be in my memory forever. I am so not proud of myself. I'm a dork.

 

[Downside Studio]

 

[Shailat]

You got a lot of answers and Ed summed it up pretty nicely.

I'll only remark on 2 things.
7 songs in 14 hours ?!?!?!!??.... you and they have a lot of expectations for 14 hours of work.......
in 14 hours I would mix no more then 1 or 2 at the most.
In a tight budget 3 songs.


Last thing is...you might be right and they wrong. Don't back down or admit to ANYTHING untill you have heard it again.
If you feel it is good then tell them so and don't feel guilty of anything.

 

[Roel]

I got the CD yesterday... Listening now, and allready compared it with most Belgian recordings on about the same budget, and in the same scene... Just one that's better as ours!! They all sound way compact and compressed. Ours is alot more open.

It lacks bass, but the balance is pretty good. Guitars and drums sound good (except for toms). Vocals are missing something. Could've used a little reverb. (they are dry)

We might quickly 'remaster' it to add some lows, but remixing is not necessary. The guy that phoned me was tripping. He has never been in a studio, and his reference is big $$ recordings and ours on the studio monitors. Idiot. He had me pretty stressed.

So, I'm pretty happy again.

atomictoyz, why is 1?

Shailat, I know about the marathon-mixing-session being too much. Normally I wouldn't mix myself for 10 hours in a row. (14 is including some edits in protools, eating-breaks, cd burning,...) But his was a budget recording, with just 4 days. All the mixing had to be done the last day. We didn't have alot of choice... And it did give me a major headache...

And one more question... I had alot of answers saying that the band helping with mixing is a bad thing. Why is that? They only help a little to make sure that everything they want to come out really comes out?

And thanks... Alot of good answers allready.

 

[warlock]

And one more question... I had alot of answers saying that the band helping with mixing is a bad thing. Why is that? They only help a little to make sure that everything they want to come out really comes out?

Of course you have to take to account what the band thinks when mixing, but usualliy it is like this:
The bass player comes back from the toilet: MORE BASS DUDE!!!
The guitarist: MHHHH I played a very cool noodle here and I cann't hear it anymore... Crank it up man.
Then the drummer says: Mhhhhh... I cann't hear the hat through the guitars anymore...... louder please....
Then the vocalist comes in from a cigarette break and goes..... DAMN the vocals are too far back can you bring them up a bit.... And now the bass player goes: MHHHHH.... Could you add more bass.....



The band is unable to mix their stuff objectively everyone thinks that their instrument is left too much in the background.
But it's just impossble to make a good dynamic mix so that all parts are clearly audible ALL the time.

Keijo

 

[warlock]

4) Mixing is a talent, not a plug-in.

Keijo

 

[Roel]

Well... This band is beyond that. Drummer didn't cause alot of trouble, just crawled underneath the mixing desk and fell asleep. Good doggie. Bassplayer knows what his task is.

Just one time, 2nd guitarplayer felt that his line wasn't clear enough. (I didn't thik of it as an important line, neither did the other guitarplayer.) So we discussed it a little, and put it up a little more. Dude still thought it was to silent, but this was the max for us. Me and the 1st guitarplayer had the final word.

And the vocalist doesn't smoke.

 

[Shailat]

And one more question... I had alot of answers saying that the band helping with mixing is a bad thing. Why is that? They only help a little to make sure that everything they want to come out really comes out?
.

For 2 reasons
1. Most band members focus on their instrument.
Look at this senerio
Guitar player: My solo isnt loud enough pick it up a bi more....

Bass player: Your nuts..... now I can't hear my bass bring the bass up a drop.

Drummer: Why is my kick so loud lower it just a drop..oh yeh and more reverb on that snare its to dry.

Keyboard player : My synth pad is to harsh...cut a bit highs...

Engineer: Now the mix is a mess........

In the backround the band members are fighting: @%#&%no you are a idiot (bass player storms out of room) . Keyboard player: What an ass....guitarist: your the ass......

Remember that if for example you are using a certain concept for the mix, then even a small change in the reverb type can blow the whole mix away.

2. Most musicians do NOT know how to mix. They can be great players even better musicians but don't know what a compressor looks like. Taking their needs into consideration is important and
as they are the clients you must listen to them but YOU must !! be the guide and lead them to results. If they lead you or ask you to do something that will compromise the mix, you must tell them so and try to convince them to do otherwise. I find this to be one of the most fustrating parts of the engineering.
Human dynamics in this field of egos, is a bitch...
I've developed techniques to cover most situations yet till today run into problems left and right....

That is way most bands get a producer (today many of them were once engineers) to make the final decision.

I see somebody else posted the same time I did and gave almost the same story...

 

[Roel]

So I'll just answer the same thing twice...

The good thing about this gig was that the guys in the band really believe in me. They knew what they wanted also, know what their position is in the band. Except for that 2nd guitarplayer one time. (He's the same guy that gave me the fun phonecall... The others have all been in studio a few times and know how it goes...)

I also told them occasionally what I did with the Eq etc, showed them why I did it... Keeps them confident, and calm cause then they realize it's over their head...