Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
Steady Seeker.
rob aylestone
Moderator
WW1 tanks? In the U.K. we have a saying - what a load of Bollocks. So full of guesstimating and throw away comments about how it worked. I remember exactly how it was as British audio products were replaced by the Japanese. The oldies referred to it as Jap Crap! It wasnt a shift to sudden high.he mentions Linn Sondek, most Brits at the time never even knew it was a Scottish brand, they figured Scandinavian, as B&O was also ‘foreign’. The script makes loads of assumptions. In the seventies stereo began being a ‘thing’. John Cleese, the comedian and Monty Python man started a series of tv ads for Sony, the “awfully nice Sony people” where he introduced people to the concept of stereo to replace mono recording players, it featured a cowboy piece of music from a movie. Memory fails but it was the Big Country, or something huge and spectacular. The script said this is what mono sounds like and it was the music compressed, no bass and mono that suddenly had
Cleese suddenly say “and now, Stereo!” And it suddenly expanded and went full band. We played it to every customer and it sold loads of stuff. We actually told people that it wasn’t “tinny”, that madam, is treble. In truth the Japanese speakers were boomy, lacking mid range and weird sounding, but that was how it was supposed to sound. It’s terrible but we actually said this was because they were tuned to Japanese homes, which had paper walls, seriously! The tube thing described in the video did not happen. Everything was transistor, and few customers wanted valves (tubes). If they did, it meant quieter, less reliable and for quality, Quad. They faded away quickly. Everyone hated beryllium tweeters and nobody even used that word, nobody knew what they were made from, I don’t ever remember using it as a sales aid. We sold Revox, nobody sold Studer. Way, way above domestic hifi.
The biggest mistake was in CD quality. The first CD players we had, the Philips flip top ones did NOT sound bad. They sounded amazing! They flew out of the doors. Stunning. Now we know the technical limitations, but we were talking about no surface noise. Remember that pop recordings were often recycled vinyl with mulched up labels in the plastic. The surface noise was mass produced awfulness. They had longer run times with the popular compilations having 20 tracks recorded at lower level to fit. They were truly awful. You had to turn the volume up and then the turntable rumble would be so obvious. You had to keep volume down or they would reproduce their own sound, fed back through the shelf they sat on. We did a roaring trade in isolation gizmos. Records were awful. Most people, however, bought a new LP, and immediately recorded it to tape. The video misses tape altogether. This was where people got their music. Cassettes, not reel to reels. Ferric tape that was like rust on sellotape and wore the heads away, then BASF chrome tape using specially toughened heads. Then Sony Ferrichrome. Three tape tapes, three eq settings, then Dolby B then Dolby C to keep the noise down. Customers were advised in the hifi magazines to record with Dolby, then experiment with switching it off for replay with enhanced treble. All crazy ideas. Graphic equalisers with smiley faces, or even presets. Tape was safe, your precious vinyl could be played once, then just looked at. CDs, from the same masters were soooo different everyone could hear, and they were not as this video proclaims, bad. They were excellent. Tv programmes demonstrated how they could be scratched and even smeared with jam (jello I think is the US word maybe). The first generation CD system was flawed but all sorts of tricks ensured they got better and better. All the rubbish about turntables cannot be further from the truth. In the U.K. the most popular two turntables were the Garrod SP25 in various generations and the BSR which was very similar, but not quite so good. The Technics 1200 appeared and was the non audiophile shop top model. Ludicrous prices and slow sellers. Disco twin decks always had the SP25 my 3 or 4. If you wanted ultimate quality in our shop we would sell you two Quad mono amplifiers and a pair of Tannoy electrostatic speakers. Great but the6 didn’t do rock music. The electrostatic plate would over excursion, short out and make a nasty bang. Great on classical. Most popular speakers were British brands Celestion and Wharfdale, with B&O quite sought after. We sold huge amounts of Japanese stereo systems and separates, but for quality, never Japanese speakers. We started selling Yamaha NS10s. Little bookshelf speakers. Really horrible sounding, and so bright. Everyone hated them. Funny how recording people took to them. Seriously though, they sold because they sounded like the typical Japanese speaker at the time, but the bigger ones. So many speakers then had elliptical drivers to fit the boxes, not circular ones. The tweeters had a simple single capacitor to prevent bass getting to them, and the bass driver got all the HF they could not reproduce. The script is based on modern understanding of how it was. Audiophiles then were just as weird as they are now. Tannoy made some nice speakers but they also made some awful cheap ones. B&W were too expensive and exclusive for the masses. American imported brands were rare. Expensive capacitors? Total bollocks. So many conclusions based on hyperbole and misinformation. Vinyl surpassed CD? Of course they did because of mp3, people were switching to that, not niche vinyl. This is a terribly spun video, wrong in so many ways.
Cleese suddenly say “and now, Stereo!” And it suddenly expanded and went full band. We played it to every customer and it sold loads of stuff. We actually told people that it wasn’t “tinny”, that madam, is treble. In truth the Japanese speakers were boomy, lacking mid range and weird sounding, but that was how it was supposed to sound. It’s terrible but we actually said this was because they were tuned to Japanese homes, which had paper walls, seriously! The tube thing described in the video did not happen. Everything was transistor, and few customers wanted valves (tubes). If they did, it meant quieter, less reliable and for quality, Quad. They faded away quickly. Everyone hated beryllium tweeters and nobody even used that word, nobody knew what they were made from, I don’t ever remember using it as a sales aid. We sold Revox, nobody sold Studer. Way, way above domestic hifi.
The biggest mistake was in CD quality. The first CD players we had, the Philips flip top ones did NOT sound bad. They sounded amazing! They flew out of the doors. Stunning. Now we know the technical limitations, but we were talking about no surface noise. Remember that pop recordings were often recycled vinyl with mulched up labels in the plastic. The surface noise was mass produced awfulness. They had longer run times with the popular compilations having 20 tracks recorded at lower level to fit. They were truly awful. You had to turn the volume up and then the turntable rumble would be so obvious. You had to keep volume down or they would reproduce their own sound, fed back through the shelf they sat on. We did a roaring trade in isolation gizmos. Records were awful. Most people, however, bought a new LP, and immediately recorded it to tape. The video misses tape altogether. This was where people got their music. Cassettes, not reel to reels. Ferric tape that was like rust on sellotape and wore the heads away, then BASF chrome tape using specially toughened heads. Then Sony Ferrichrome. Three tape tapes, three eq settings, then Dolby B then Dolby C to keep the noise down. Customers were advised in the hifi magazines to record with Dolby, then experiment with switching it off for replay with enhanced treble. All crazy ideas. Graphic equalisers with smiley faces, or even presets. Tape was safe, your precious vinyl could be played once, then just looked at. CDs, from the same masters were soooo different everyone could hear, and they were not as this video proclaims, bad. They were excellent. Tv programmes demonstrated how they could be scratched and even smeared with jam (jello I think is the US word maybe). The first generation CD system was flawed but all sorts of tricks ensured they got better and better. All the rubbish about turntables cannot be further from the truth. In the U.K. the most popular two turntables were the Garrod SP25 in various generations and the BSR which was very similar, but not quite so good. The Technics 1200 appeared and was the non audiophile shop top model. Ludicrous prices and slow sellers. Disco twin decks always had the SP25 my 3 or 4. If you wanted ultimate quality in our shop we would sell you two Quad mono amplifiers and a pair of Tannoy electrostatic speakers. Great but the6 didn’t do rock music. The electrostatic plate would over excursion, short out and make a nasty bang. Great on classical. Most popular speakers were British brands Celestion and Wharfdale, with B&O quite sought after. We sold huge amounts of Japanese stereo systems and separates, but for quality, never Japanese speakers. We started selling Yamaha NS10s. Little bookshelf speakers. Really horrible sounding, and so bright. Everyone hated them. Funny how recording people took to them. Seriously though, they sold because they sounded like the typical Japanese speaker at the time, but the bigger ones. So many speakers then had elliptical drivers to fit the boxes, not circular ones. The tweeters had a simple single capacitor to prevent bass getting to them, and the bass driver got all the HF they could not reproduce. The script is based on modern understanding of how it was. Audiophiles then were just as weird as they are now. Tannoy made some nice speakers but they also made some awful cheap ones. B&W were too expensive and exclusive for the masses. American imported brands were rare. Expensive capacitors? Total bollocks. So many conclusions based on hyperbole and misinformation. Vinyl surpassed CD? Of course they did because of mp3, people were switching to that, not niche vinyl. This is a terribly spun video, wrong in so many ways.
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TalismanRich
Well-known member
So much BS. At least 50% of what is said in the last half is justifying the trendy aspect of buying stereo gear. Read about it on the Tic Tok, post your pics of your gear on Instagram and it becomes gospel.
There were instances of bad sounding CDs being produced for a number of reasons, but there were also incredibly good CDs produced at the same time.
My biggest beef with vinyl was the inevitable clicks and pops that developed, but second to that was the fact that the sound was SO variable. Change the cartridge and the sound changed. Change the stylus and the sound changed. The turntable system itself was a variable, just like choosing a different microphone. Which at it's heart means that the sound is WRONG, at least it isn't what the original artist might have give the green light to. Transducers that convert energy from one form to another are, to me, the weakest link in that they have the greatest variance. That means speakers, microphones, and phono cartridges.
Mastering engineers played lots of tricks to make sure that you had some high frequencies (including the RIAA curve) and balanced the low frequencies so that the stylus at least had a chance to negotiate the groove without jumping out. But the master lacquer only makes so many stampers, and a stamper can only make so many records. How many masters were cut for that million seller masterpiece. Did the same engineer cut those new masters (often not). First pressings often didn't sound like later pressings. And don't even think about the days when you recycled the vinyl into your new records! There goes your signal to noise ratio.
And you have that massive channel separation.... maybe 25dB crosstalk in the midrange if you had a high end setup. And balance changed left to right if things weren't perfect. Sweep that guitar track back and forth and the left channel didn't always sound like the right channel.
Then you get CDs, where every copy is exactly the same. The mastering engineer shouldn't be compressing and re-EQing the final digital master that is stored in the computer. There is no need for that. Transfer the digital info to the glass master, metalize to create the sons (stampers) and proceed. I have heard a test where there were a half dozen different players and they were basically indistinguishable (this was in the early 90s). Crosstalk was essentially gone, so if you mixed the kazoo 100% left channel, that's where it stays. High frequencies that were missing on many records were there. Cymbals had a sparkle that I didn't hear on vinyl but heard in real life.
I never had a boom box for convenience. I've had separates since the early 70s, and still have them today. And switching to CD was NOT a matter of convenience. It was a matter of getting rid of crap that we put up with playing records for 10 or 15 years. The Genesis CD that I bought in the 80s sounds exactly the same today as it did then. My second copy of Electric Ladyland on vinyl, sadly does not. My RCA Holst - The Planets album is a collection of clicks and pops. The CD sounds exactly as it did when I unwrapped it over 30 years ago.
BTW, the stereo system I put together around 1980 was primarily a combination of British, American and Canadian gear. Bryston amp, GAS preamp, Rega turntable and IMF speakers. The only things that were Asian were the Grace 707 arm and the Yamaha tuner.
There were instances of bad sounding CDs being produced for a number of reasons, but there were also incredibly good CDs produced at the same time.
My biggest beef with vinyl was the inevitable clicks and pops that developed, but second to that was the fact that the sound was SO variable. Change the cartridge and the sound changed. Change the stylus and the sound changed. The turntable system itself was a variable, just like choosing a different microphone. Which at it's heart means that the sound is WRONG, at least it isn't what the original artist might have give the green light to. Transducers that convert energy from one form to another are, to me, the weakest link in that they have the greatest variance. That means speakers, microphones, and phono cartridges.
Mastering engineers played lots of tricks to make sure that you had some high frequencies (including the RIAA curve) and balanced the low frequencies so that the stylus at least had a chance to negotiate the groove without jumping out. But the master lacquer only makes so many stampers, and a stamper can only make so many records. How many masters were cut for that million seller masterpiece. Did the same engineer cut those new masters (often not). First pressings often didn't sound like later pressings. And don't even think about the days when you recycled the vinyl into your new records! There goes your signal to noise ratio.
And you have that massive channel separation.... maybe 25dB crosstalk in the midrange if you had a high end setup. And balance changed left to right if things weren't perfect. Sweep that guitar track back and forth and the left channel didn't always sound like the right channel.
Then you get CDs, where every copy is exactly the same. The mastering engineer shouldn't be compressing and re-EQing the final digital master that is stored in the computer. There is no need for that. Transfer the digital info to the glass master, metalize to create the sons (stampers) and proceed. I have heard a test where there were a half dozen different players and they were basically indistinguishable (this was in the early 90s). Crosstalk was essentially gone, so if you mixed the kazoo 100% left channel, that's where it stays. High frequencies that were missing on many records were there. Cymbals had a sparkle that I didn't hear on vinyl but heard in real life.
I never had a boom box for convenience. I've had separates since the early 70s, and still have them today. And switching to CD was NOT a matter of convenience. It was a matter of getting rid of crap that we put up with playing records for 10 or 15 years. The Genesis CD that I bought in the 80s sounds exactly the same today as it did then. My second copy of Electric Ladyland on vinyl, sadly does not. My RCA Holst - The Planets album is a collection of clicks and pops. The CD sounds exactly as it did when I unwrapped it over 30 years ago.
BTW, the stereo system I put together around 1980 was primarily a combination of British, American and Canadian gear. Bryston amp, GAS preamp, Rega turntable and IMF speakers. The only things that were Asian were the Grace 707 arm and the Yamaha tuner.
