Awesome Sounding Death Metal Project

[RAMI]

Agred. I don't know Cloneboy and I barely know Finster, though have had a little more contact with him here than Cloneboy. I have nothing against either of you, so am not taking sides. Having said that, I don't think Finster was out of line at all.
I think what caused a lot of people to re-act to this thread was the phrase "awesome sounding"...It raised expectations too high. And the thing that seems contradictory is calling a thread "awsome sounding, etc...." but then when people give their opinion that they think it's far from awesome, your message changes to "I know it's not great but this is what they wanted..." Well, if you know it's not great, why did you claim it was awesome in the first place. It's just contradictory.
It doesn't suck by any means and I don't think anyone claimed it did. But when you lay people onto the "17,000 years of experience and this is my awesome gear list", not only does it seem a little pretentious, it actually works agaisnt you because then people think "I wouldn't be bragging about that if this is what you're presenting". I'm not saying you WERE bragging, but it could come off that way. Believe me, if this thread started out with "Here's a band I'm recording, what do you think?", the thread would have went in a totally different direction.

Ok, I'm ready for those negative rep points now.

 

[metalhead28]

damn....too bad my "Awesome Kong" approach just didn't work like I had hoped......

 

[XLR]

Been following the thread and was about to comment on the music when it started getting kind of hot in here. Forgetting the name calling, the debate seems more of a difference in approach to business practices/client handling than a matter of engineering skills - where to draw the line when being hired as an engineer... do you give the client what they want regardless of their taste? (Specifically, the female clean vox here.) Or am I missing the point?

Tim

 

[RAMI]

I dug the whole "awsome kong" analogy. Made me think of how hard it is to by gel. There "Mega" hold, "Ultimate" hold, "Maximum" hold, "Super" hold. FUCK!!!

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

where to draw the line when being hired as an engineer... do you give the client what they want regardless of their taste? Or am I missing the point?

Good question!

Depends on the engineer and client. Some clients you can have more input, some you can't. Some engineers are more "faithful" to the source recording, and others like things to be more "produced."

Myself, I give the client what they want. If they turn out to not like it a few years later they have nobody to blame but themselves. Who am I, as an engineer, to make artistic decisions for my clients???

The most I'll do is A/B comparisons between how I hear things and what they want to hear. Choice is always theirs.

Keep in mind my way may differ from his way or your way of doing things.

Sidenote: I never sought to brag about gear or equipment--I had only responded to questions from other members wondering what was used for the recording. The other reply was in response to someone claiming they could accomplish the same result on "1/3rd" the equipment used--which was laughable considering he wasn't aware of the setup requirements of the client.

Tell you the truth I should be a lot better engineer for how long I've been doing it... although most of those years were spent as a total hobbyist. I didn't step into a "real" studio until 2000, and I didn't even start doing recording work for money until 2001.

Heck, I was recording on an Otari 8 track and mixing down thru a Mackie mixer into a HIFI VCR until 1998 because that was the best I could afford.

 

[XLR]

Some engineers are more "faithful" to the source recording, and others like things to be more "produced."

What I had in mind was also along the lines of non-engineering performance aspects of the talent and the arrangement - the whole issue of how much to push with those things. Of course it depends on the situation. In comparison, I was thinking of a thread from maybe 6 wks ago where Finster mentioned he talked the band he was working with into replacing their lead singer during the sessions.

Tim

 

[giraffe]

the average are telling the average that they are average.

so what.


look, nobody posting in the mp3 mix clinic is up for a grammy, that odiously includes me (although sometimes you hear some awesome work..... but not from me )

any time some one effectively tells someone that they suck and don't moderate it some, you should expect them to get a little offended. i don't care who you are. that is, i'm afraid, how it is.

the bottom line is, no one here deserves to be cocky
not in their mixes, and not in their replies.
and any one who actually deserved to be cocky, probably wouldn't be.





let the flameing begin

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

In comparison, I was thinking of a thread from maybe 6 wks ago where Finster mentioned he talked the band he was working with into replacing their lead singer during the sessions.

IMHO that's way too hands-on of an approach and crossing the boundries of what an engineer/producer needs to be doing. Especially for small fries like the people around here not doing major label recordings.

 

[7string]

That's what I love about this site... everyone's an expert and could do it better than you can.

My point was that my mixing skills are so crappy and my gear is so crappy that if somebody actually WANTS a crappy mix, I could do it easily. The problem is that I wouldn't do it on purpose, like you did. It'd just turn out that way!!!!!

 

[Strave]

My point was that my mixing skills are so crappy and my gear is so crappy that if somebody actually WANTS a crappy mix, I could do it easily. The problem is that I wouldn't do it on purpose, like you did. It'd just turn out that way!!!!!

Now that is funny.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

My point was that my mixing skills are so crappy and my gear is so crappy that if somebody actually WANTS a crappy mix, I could do it easily. The problem is that I wouldn't do it on purpose, like you did. It'd just turn out that way!!!!!

C'mon, it's not crappy.... geeze....

 

[7string]

C'mon, it's not crappy.... geeze....

Ok, not crappy. But if somebody wanted a mix like this one on purpose, I could do it. And it would just be because of my lack of skills that would do it. Better?

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Ok, not crappy. But if somebody wanted a mix like this one on purpose, I could do it. And it would just be because of my lack of skills that would do it. Better?

Yeah but the difference between this mix and the typical Pantera "tight ass" sounding mix is very slight. Literally all you have to do is:

Chop off some more 200hz and add some 6.2khz on the kick for that clickiness; raise the rhythm guitar levels about 1.5db, remove the slight 3khz cut and shelf boost the high end; drop bass guitar level about 1db; more 5khz on toms; take room mics down about 3db and less to the reverb buss; and more 10khz and less 1.2khz, and lighten up the compression a tad on the snare.

 

[Steal Sessions]

I guess that everybody has his or hers own way of coping with client requests'... Sometimes it is crazy.. Guitars recorded with a nice mid-range have to be eq-shaped to sound like there's no midrange at all.. Bassplayer that want to record their own parts at home which ends up not fitting in the mix and sounding like s**t. You'll just have to cope sometimes. Maybe this band that was recordedd by Cloneboy would be rejected by others on this forum because of the specs Cloneboy presented here or the attitude of the band. It sounds like this band was totally disconnected from the fact that Mr. Cloneboy is damn well capable of making a great sounding mix but just rejected that in favour of their own ideas. I can imagine that if you have to make a living recording band that you'd accept to do stoopid stuff like that. More power to you. I'm sure I'd not be happy doing that, and since I'm not depending on recording to make a living (in which case I'd be dead by now for sure) I'd just tell the band to go somwhere else. Cloneboy managed to have them leave the studio happy, and even paying him for his work. And that's great.

I think the whole thing is that some bands do expect you to record the band and create a great sounding mix without beeing flexible enough to take a hint or two. They expect the engineer to be able to cope, whatever happens, and not to try to be the producer. I guess that's why a 'real' recording is often led by an external producer whom everybody is willing to listen to. Bands expect you to create a great mix with the crap they spit at your expensive mics, but don't want to listen to any of your tips or ideas.

'Please be here on time'. 'Please put some new heads on your drumkit', 'Please tune using the same tuner your guitarplayer used', 'Please don't run in circles around the microphone while recording the lead vocals', 'Is it really required to bring your mobile into the room while recording the drums?', 'So you don't know how your D4 actually works, didn't bring the manual, but still want me to record the triggers properly?', 'Ow, that crappy non-tunable snaredrum is a part of the band's sound-charackter?', 'Yes, it is a pitty you managed to kill my cymbal during the recording session.. (used to replace his already cracked cymbal)'.....

No problem. Come back any time. *client leaves room happily*...



Cloneboy, Q: do you happen to have a mix of this song as you would have liked it to sound? That would be interesting I guess..

 

[7string]

Yeah but the difference between this mix and the typical Pantera "tight ass" sounding mix is very slight. Literally all you have to do is:

Chop off some more 200hz and add some 6.2khz on the kick for that clickiness; raise the rhythm guitar levels about 1.5db, remove the slight 3khz cut and shelf boost the high end; drop bass guitar level about 1db; more 5khz on toms; take room mics down about 3db and less to the reverb buss; and more 10khz and less 1.2khz, and lighten up the compression a tad on the snare.

Which proves my point. I'm such a newbie to this that I wouldn't know all that. I hope to be to that point someday soon and as long as people like you, Glen, Blue Bear and a host of others keep posting things like the above and giving good explanations for things, I will continue to learn. I'm still adjusting to this and although I am stuck here in this house 24/7/365 I wish I could spend as much time as I'd like on mixing and learning, but that just taint gonna happen. And I don't ever expect to run my own studio. I'm just doing it for my own music and nothing else.

Keeps me sane...

 

[Hubbawho]

yes Cloneboy, link us to a version of the song mixed the way you think it should sound and lets end this damn thread once in for all... (plus I'd prefer to have the better mix saved for my own personal music library )

keep in mind I'm not questioning your mixing skills at all, only requesting that now you show us the way it SHOULD'VE been done. Hope you consider.

 

[NL5]

yes Cloneboy, link us to a version of the song mixed the way you think it should sound and lets end this damn thread once in for all... (plus I'd prefer to have the better mix saved for my own personal music library )

keep in mind I'm not questioning your mixing skills at all, only requesting that now you show us the way it SHOULD'VE been done. Hope you consider.

Seems like an EASY solution......

 

[Wireneck]

Seems like an EASY solution......

I suggested that same thing earlier in the thread.

Yeah but the difference between this mix and the typical Pantera "tight ass" sounding mix is very slight.

You have absolutely nothing to prove to any of us and im not saying that I could do any better given the circumstances or the vast amount of equipment. For most of us this is just a hobby. If your making your living doing this, more power to you. With that said, I think your image of your work is slightly skewed. Only a slight difference from a Pantera mix? I think you need a serious reality check.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Only a slight difference from a Pantera mix? I think you need a serious reality check.

Granted tone-wise there would be a lot of difference (especially on the guitars), but because metal is *SO* production oriented you can take a track in many different directions with often fairly slight changes from one distinct "style" and another.

The only reason the kick drums sound a bit tubby is because there is too much energy in the 180-300hz region. Scoop that out, and move the 4k boost around 6.2khz and the kick sounds *radically* different.

I'm surprised you don't already know this... to be honest.

I'll dig up one of the early mixes that I had done before I started taking band input and show you what I had envisioned for the song. Probably won't be until after this weekend because I've got 2 new projects to start and another large one to finish in the next few days and putting up old mixes just isn't my top priority.

 

[Sonixx]

Agred. I don't know Cloneboy and I barely know Finster, though have had a little more contact with him here than Cloneboy. I have nothing against either of you, so am not taking sides. Having said that, I don't think Finster was out of line at all.
I think what caused a lot of people to re-act to this thread was the phrase "awesome sounding"...It raised expectations too high. And the thing that seems contradictory is calling a thread "awsome sounding, etc...." but then when people give their opinion that they think it's far from awesome, your message changes to "I know it's not great but this is what they wanted..." Well, if you know it's not great, why did you claim it was awesome in the first place. It's just contradictory.
It doesn't suck by any means and I don't think anyone claimed it did. But when you lay people onto the "17,000 years of experience and this is my awesome gear list", not only does it seem a little pretentious, it actually works agaisnt you because then people think "I wouldn't be bragging about that if this is what you're presenting". I'm not saying you WERE bragging, but it could come off that way. Believe me, if this thread started out with "Here's a band I'm recording, what do you think?", the thread would have went in a totally different direction.

Ok, I'm ready for those negative rep points now.

RAMI, you stated my thoughts much better than I was able to do... and I did receive a Negative rep point two days ago on my comment about Cloneboy being defensive...

The tracking and mixing is very good, but the clip IMO just didn't meet the high expectation laid out by Cloneboy.

-kp-