ATR MDS-36 shedding alot on Fostex R8

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Jzoha18

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I've been recording a 10 min track on a newly serviced Fostex R8 and I'm getting a lot of she'd off this new reel. The tracks are Recording fine with no dropout's but why is it shedding this much each time I track? Is this normal? Is it just the deck being a cheaper one and having alot of friction by design? I'm very confused I was under the impression she'd happens but this seems extreme. I've cleaned the transport 4 times since starting this song and I'm only 4 tracks in.
 

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That looks like edge damage to me, and there may be a reason for that.
If this machine is new to you, it's possible it's spent most of its life running Ampex or Quantegy 457. An interesting quirk of that tape is that Ampex supposedly had a few issues slitting it neatly, and as a workaround slit the tape bit thinner than the full 1/4".
As a result, there have been a number of reports where a machine has suddenly been given RTM or ATR tape after decades of use with Ampex/Quantegy, and sheds all over the place. This can happen when there's an Ampex-sized groove worn into the tape path - you get edge damage because the properly-sized tape won't quite fit. IIRC the solution is to try and ignore it until the groove has been widened through use.
 
Wow I would never of thought of that! Thank you! It is a machine I recently got and yes it was designed for Ampex tape when it was new. Unfortunately the 456 and make 35-90UD I had both were sticky shedding and having major dropouts so I gave up on buying old tape despite success stories from other's. I don't feel like getting in a bunch of PayPal disputes over people selling junk tape. Its a hard item to request a return/refund for in these situations.
 
I think jpmorris is spot-on. There is another similar post about an Otari machine to which I replied here:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/analog-recording-and-mixing-tape-and-gear/otari-mx5050-mkiii-tape-lifters-guides-402022/#post4514900

By the way, you pondered if your issue could be related to your Fostex’s “cheaper...friction” design. The fact your machine has static guides does not mean it is a cheaper design...there are multiple ways to handle tape guidance, and there are very high end machines that utilize static (vs rotating) guides. The advantage to static guides is there is no mechanical “noise” imparted into the tape path...no bearing noise...noise is created by vibrations. If you can hear a bearing spin when you spin it, you are hearing it because as it spins it is vibrating which moves air and then that air movement moves the sensory hairs in your ear canal. If it is vibrating enough to move air, it is reasonable to assume it can vibrate enough to transfer those vibrations to the tape, and that “noise” can be measured...and it’s unwanted. So there is a problem to tackle with rotating guides and better bearings mean quieter mechanical noise. Good quality sleeve bearings can be quieter than ball bearings. Good quality ball bearings are quieter than bad quality bearings. Fancy scrape flutter idlers use jewel bearings...like precision ruby end stones...very smooth, precise and mechanically silent for all intents and purposes. Also more expensive. Static guides have none of these mechanical noise problems, but the problem with static surfaces is scrape flutter...like drawing a bow across violin strings, the tape vibrates as it is drawn across static surfaces...guides, heads, etc. The frequency at which the tape vibrates depends on the length of unsupported tape. Longer lengths vibrate at lower frequencies. A properly designed tape path takes these lengths into consideration along with the total wrap angle (the sum of the angles the tape makes around static surfaces) in order to abate scrape flutter (by keeping unsupported tape lengths short, the first order scrape flutter frequencies are kept outside the audio band), and additionally scrape flutter idlers can help to dampen scrape flutter harmonics. There is a real science to it. My 3M M-64 tape machine is very much a professional-grade machine, and all the guides are static...but the design of the tape path features some of the shortest unsupported tape length specs and smallest wrap angle, and the flutter spec reflects this...and there is no scrape flutter idler; not needed. SO...static guide does not mean “cheap”...you have to look at the whole picture and each machine is different. There are multiple issues to address with any tape path and different manufactures have gone about addressing those issues in a wide variety of ways over the decades.
 
Lol

Okay, well, how about this...you can choose to read what somebody posts or not, and what somebody posts may be for you, for anybody else reading the thread, or maybe because the poster wants to brain dump info you don’t really care about. You asked the questions, feel free to pick and choose what you read or don’t read. It’s a public forum, somebody else might want the info down the road. In the meantime I’ll continue posting what I want to post. And I do all my posting from a mobile device, and do most of my troubleshooting/schematic analysis from that mobile device, so I’m not sure what your point is about posting off your phone.

And if you were looking for a “static guides don’t cause friction” affirmation, hopefully that’s not the message you got from my post. They DO. That’s where the scrape flutter comes from. My point was actually to try and help you understand that just because your Fostex machine has static guides doesn’t mean it’s “cheap”...don’t want you to sell your machine short.
 
Oh and I appreciate it! Everyone sells these machines short on forums even my own tech. But I'm running a almost full hybrid home analog studio at 21 with a mint tascam 424mkiii this R8 and my mint Tascam 112rmlii 3 Head mixdown deck and I've always wanted an 8 track reel to reel but until I graduate and take up a semi middle class income, I can't afford a 1/2" 8-16 track reel to reel and everyone told me I was wasting time trying these fostex decks. But I've heard great work done on em and my first demo track with Dolby C on the R8 and on my mix down on cassette dumped into my DAW in stereo with some added compressor and mastering Blew me away with it's quality. Much deeper then even my best cassette Mix and Virtually no noise! Everyone said the tascam 388 was the only 1/4 deck worth while but I'm 7.5 IPS is too slow for good results. My R8 I t hink SMOKES that overpriced deck. And I'm using a Tascam M-208 so I basically got the same board a 388 has but on a faster deck and I'm very surprised with it's results. I just need a reliable tape stock. I think I will stick with ATR as RMG only sells 5" reels and that's not even 10 min Recording time. I originally wanted a tascam 238 but I think the R8 will be better even with fidelity being similar (the reviews at the Time compared them both. My R8 was a deck put away in a closet and has nice heads so for 200 plus 161 for the belt installation I think I did great! My next deck I'm thinking will be a tascam TSR-8 or 38 or maybe an otari 5050 8 track but I'll make that decision after I land this new job at 50k salary next Month. I will be debuting as an artist soon with the R8 I'm just learning the mixing Desk and deck for a few tracks before I start cutting album tracks. Thanks for all the info I really appreciate it and love my new 8 track studio. I've waited 3 years for this setup to materialize. My tech told me running test tones and biasing everything for this new deck probably isn't really worth my time because I'm not going to get recordings that are that much better than just a 4-track cassette anyway what do you think? use it as I got it or go get it completely calibrated for this new type of tape I'm using? How can I go about posting the first demo track that I made I would really like you guys to listen to it and give me som. e feedback on the mixing and mastering that I did. ��
 
Having been here a while, I've concluded that when sweetbeats takes the time to type, it's worth a read.
Lets not devolve into a 'soundbyte' world.

Lol
Btw, OP........your last post was long in it's own right.
:D :D
 
Fair enough I had a few last night��. My transport and my liver we're competing for most alcohol consumption in 5 hours of recording last night
 
If I were you Jzoha18 I'd try Recording The Masters (RTM) LPR35 or SM911 tape in 7" reel. The LPR35 is 1.0 mil thick, supposedly equivalent to Quantegy 457, the SM911 is 1.5 mil thick & equivalent to Quantegy 456. I have read another person's recent post on TapeOp with a R8 and prefers to use SM911 as the bass is better with the thicker tape. RTM bought out RMGI I think. I wouldn't spend any extra money to recalibrate your R8. Just try it with RTM. Clean the tape path constantly when using the R8 and demag frequently. Treat it good because spare parts are difficult to find for Fostex gear.

If you plan to move up to better gear when you get gainful employment and want to stay analog, consider first buying a good 1/4" 2-track deck to mix down to. Try to get a 2-track reel that you run @15 ips and can have calibrated to use the newer +9 tapes (like ATR), even if you may only be able to bias up to +6. Then consider going up to 1/2" or 1" 16 track or even 2" analog decks with a decent older 8 bus mixer that most people hate on (Mackie, Soundcraft, Soundtracs). They don't cost much these days used, check Craigslist regularly. Just depends on your budget.
 
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