Apologies in advance...

[NotThatBright]

Quick background on this... A couple months ago I was close to the TV at a bar that had one of those high cable channels on that are just music (in this case, a '60s rock channel)... and this came on. I was captivated. This is not my type of music, but the catchiness (and to some extent, creepiness) of the song overwhelmed me. The rest of the day I couldn't get it out of my head. I wasn't sure if I liked it or hated it, but I couldn't get it out of my head!

Upon going home and youtubing it, I realized it was in Dumb & Dumber and then I remembered hearing it in the movie. Anyway, I wound up trying to cover it that night because I couldn't focus on anything else, and just recently tried to give it a legitimate mix. I had to laugh, it probably sounds better than anything else I posted here, and I still can't admit to myself that I even like the song.

Let me know what you think of the mix. I tried to make a standard guitar-bass-drum song out of it. It will still rot your teeth.

New mixes:

Mix #2- Heavier kick, slightly more overhead, regular snare sound (these comparisons are all relative to Mix #3)

https://soundcloud.com/user926962740...-snare/s-g6e3s

Mix #3- Lighter kick, slightly less overhead, inverted snare sound (the PHASE thing is flipped- I don't know exactly what that does or means, but it made for a higher-pitched snare in this case)

https://soundcloud.com/user926962740...vsnare/s-3AzW6


If you would give a listen and offer an opinion between #2 and #3, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.



Here's the original, which I warn you will be stuck in your head for a week:

The Cowsills - The Rain The Park & Other Things on Vimeo

 

[Schwarzenyaeger]

Ha!

Kick in the first mix sounds fine. It has low end content and cuts through. It has a nice smack and doesn't drown out the bass guitar. You could turn up the cymbals a bit more though!
The second mix I just can't hear any low end on the kick at all.

I did hear the track clip once or twice around 0:25-0:33. Might have just been me with my morning ears though.

Guitars sound nice but I sometimes get the feeling that they are stopping and starting a half second delayed from each other. It makes it sound a bit uneasy in stereo.

Your voice is nice for this style. Sounds like a more modern Beatles song? (Is it a cover?)

 

[NotThatBright]

Ha!

The second mix I just can't hear any low end on the kick at all.

For Christ's sake...

I did hear the track clip once or twice around 0:25-0:33. Might have just been me with my morning ears though.

There's some quick snap-type sound (like static) right on a kick drum hit around :26... I assume that's what you mean. Don't know how it got there.

Guitars sound nice but I sometimes get the feeling that they are stopping and starting a half second delayed from each other. It makes it sound a bit uneasy in stereo.

You're right, the rhythm guitars aren't synced... I suppose when they're playing the same part I should have tried to keep them in sync.

Your voice is nice for this style. Sounds like a more modern Beatles song? (Is it a cover?)

Sadly, I guess this is the kind of music my voice is suited for! Thanks, though.

I've never done acid, and I think to write a song like this you have to be on it for about 2 years straight. I have the link to the original at the bottom of my initial post. You've heard it before if you've ever seen Dumb & Dumber.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. This song is a classic. You must be a youngin.

Um, the mixes are not doing much for me. The levels are pretty good, and I like your take on this song, but my biggest issues are simply that I don't think you are starting with good sounds to begin with. Then you're just not playing very well. And you're not capturing the sounds you have as good as you can. I'm really not trying to be harsh, I'm just saying, playing decently, and starting with good sounds make this stuff SOOOOOO much easier.

But going past that, you've got a lot of muck build up in the low mids. Classic n00b scenario. That's the last place you want mucky buildup. I gotta assume your mixing environment is partly to blame. But don't go scooping out lows and mids with EQ. Fix it next time at the source. For example, the bass and drums are really murky. The kick has sort of an artificial sounding boosted attack. That's fine, kick drums can be tricky to get sounding deep and powerful while still having some slap, but it seems to me that you chose the wrong frequencies to boost. The body of the kick sounds very boxy while the attack sounds plastic and unnatural. A retune, better mic placement, and maybe even different beater material are in order if that you want *that* kind of kick sound. Trust me, it might be tempting to just fumblefuck it with EQ and compression, but that sound is not gonna be there unless it's already in there. The snare and toms have little to no attack. Plenty of body in both, you somehow captured some nice snare sizzle, but where's the pop? The toms seem like they're tuned pretty well, but they sound dull because that initial microsecond attack isn't in there. And then there's the overhead. I don't know what's going on there. Sounds like one overhead mic? If so, no problem, but it sounds trashy. You're either using some less-than-great cymbals or your room and bleed from other mics are fucking up your overhead sound. Basically the drums on the whole need a lot of work. And then you gotta play em way better than that. The drums are the foundation. Bad drums will kill an entire mix worse than bad anything else. Bad drums are even worse than bad vocals. A good drum mix is what separates a good sounding recording from some crappy home recording. Guitars, bass, vocals....that shit is easy. Almost anyone can figure that stuff out. It's even easier with all the bullshit sims and softwares out there. Drums are the hard part. Real drums are hard to deal with, they take some work, some practice, but that's what separates the men from the boys....unless maybe you like boys.

On the plus side, I actually like the guitars, although the left rhythm goes missing sometimes. The guitar sound is pretty good. I like that kind of sound. I think your vocals sound pretty good too. We got a guy here that goes by TripleM, you sound just like him. I think your levels are all pretty good. Panning is pretty balanced except for the already mentioned left guitar going missing sometimes. Everything is mostly there. I'd swap some kick presence for more snare, and probably bring the overhead up some.

Just work on those drums dude. That will make a HUGE difference.

 

[NotThatBright]

Lol. This song is a classic. You must be a youngin.

Certainly not as youngin' as I used to be! But too young to have been alive when this came out.

Um, the mixes are not doing much for me. The levels are pretty good, and I like your take on this song, but my biggest issues are simply that I don't think you are starting with good sounds to begin with. Then you're just not playing very well.

Even I knew that!

And you're not capturing the sounds you have as good as you can. I'm really not trying to be harsh, I'm just saying, playing decently, and starting with good sounds make this stuff SOOOOOO much easier.

Don't worry about being harsh... I appreciate the honesty and time you took to help. Just don't tell me to GO GET MY FUCKIN' SHINEBOX!

I hope to be able to play enough that I can make some strides relatively quickly. Another thing that drives me crazy is when a fast song requires fast tapping of the hats or ride. I've always been an athletic guy and I thought I would just sit behind a kit and start wrecking shit as soon as I learned timing. Turns out my wrists and forearms have not yet proven to be able to sustain fast hits on the hi-hat or ride for any length of time (particularly the hi-hat, the ride is somewhat easier). I have to cut the number of taps per minute in half for some songs I try to play, and it really cuts the balls off the song. Are there any tricks to fast, consistent hi-hat playing, or will I just build up popeye forearms with enough practice and be able to tap a cymbal 300 times in a minute without my wrist exploding?

But going past that, you've got a lot of muck build up in the low mids. Classic n00b scenario. That's the last place you want mucky buildup. I gotta assume your mixing environment is partly to blame. But don't go scooping out lows and mids with EQ. Fix it next time at the source. For example, the bass and drums are really murky. The kick has sort of an artificial sounding boosted attack. That's fine, kick drums can be tricky to get sounding deep and powerful while still having some slap, but it seems to me that you chose the wrong frequencies to boost.

Here are the EQ settings I use on my kick.

View attachment 89588

Do you have ballpark figures of what these kick EQ settings should be (given that there aren't major malfunctions elsewhere, like mic placement or tuning problems)?

By the way, as far as placement, I have a D112 mic and half the mic is sticking inside the hole on the head. I also have a decent-sized blanket rolled up inside it, with the blanket touching the beater head. My goal has always been the thud with a click.

The body of the kick sounds very boxy while the attack sounds plastic and unnatural. A retune, better mic placement, and maybe even different beater material are in order if that you want *that* kind of kick sound. Trust me, it might be tempting to just fumblefuck it with EQ and compression, but that sound is not gonna be there unless it's already in there. The snare and toms have little to no attack. Plenty of body in both, you somehow captured some nice snare sizzle, but where's the pop? The toms seem like they're tuned pretty well, but they sound dull because that initial microsecond attack isn't in there. And then there's the overhead. I don't know what's going on there. Sounds like one overhead mic? If so, no problem, but it sounds trashy. You're either using some less-than-great cymbals or your room and bleed from other mics are fucking up your overhead sound.

Probably a little from column A and a little from column B. My cymbals (Meinls) all put together cost about $50 more than that badass 20" RUDE you got. I'll see if the bleed I got is enough to make a difference. I bet it does... I think I have the tom mics turned up pretty high.

Basically the drums on the whole need a lot of work. And then you gotta play em way better than that. The drums are the foundation. Bad drums will kill an entire mix worse than bad anything else. Bad drums are even worse than bad vocals. A good drum mix is what separates a good sounding recording from some crappy home recording. Guitars, bass, vocals....that shit is easy. Almost anyone can figure that stuff out. It's even easier with all the bullshit sims and softwares out there. Drums are the hard part.


Real drums are hard to deal with, they take some work, some practice, but that's what separates the men from the boys....unless maybe you like boys.

Ha! You think a gay guy would put forth such sloppy handiwork? I'm all man, brother! Don't let the singing voice fool you.

On the plus side, I actually like the guitars, although the left rhythm goes missing sometimes. The guitar sound is pretty good. I like that kind of sound. I think your vocals sound pretty good too. We got a guy here that goes by TripleM, you sound just like him. I think your levels are all pretty good. Panning is pretty balanced except for the already mentioned left guitar going missing sometimes. Everything is mostly there. I'd swap some kick presence for more snare, and probably bring the overhead up some.

Just work on those drums dude. That will make a HUGE difference.

I knew something had to be acceptable! I will crank up the snare.

I appreciate all the help. Someday I look forward to being a drumming machine, or at least learning how to record them right.

Thanks buddy.

 

[Greg_L]

Certainly not as youngin' as I used to be! But too young to have been alive when this came out.

Well I wasn't either. This song is probably like 5-10 years before I crawled out of the tunnel.

I hope to be able to play enough that I can make some strides relatively quickly. Another thing that drives me crazy is when a fast song requires fast tapping of the hats or ride. I've always been an athletic guy and I thought I would just sit behind a kit and start wrecking shit as soon as I learned timing. Turns out my wrists and forearms have not yet proven to be able to sustain fast hits on the hi-hat or ride for any length of time (particularly the hi-hat, the ride is somewhat easier). I have to cut the number of taps per minute in half for some songs I try to play, and it really cuts the balls off the song. Are there any tricks to fast, consistent hi-hat playing, or will I just build up popeye forearms with enough practice and be able to tap a cymbal 300 times in a minute without my wrist exploding?

I've gotten pretty good at fast, consistent, rapid-fire hi-hat stuff. I don't play with dynamics or have many chops, but goddamn I can play those Ramones 8th notes day long. Big arms isn't going to help you. It's all in the technique. and stamina. Less is more - less flailing around means more playing. Be efficient in your movements. Those fast hi-hat notes are all in the wrist and fingers. Lock your elbow in and make all of your movement come from the wrist and fingers. Tops of your hand pointed up at the ceiling. You're moving your hand, not your whole forearm. Pop on an early Ramones or AC/DC album and play along with it. No cut-time cheating with those bands. Play the 8th notes.

Here are the EQ settings I use on my kick.

View attachment 89588

Do you have ballpark figures of what these kick EQ settings should be (given that there aren't major malfunctions elsewhere, like mic placement or tuning problems)?

By the way, as far as placement, I have a D112 mic and half the mic is sticking inside the hole on the head. I also have a decent-sized blanket rolled up inside it, with the blanket touching the beater head. My goal has always been the thud with a click.

Those EQ settings seem pretty extreme. But, I'm not there to hear or mess with it. Kick drums do usually need some help, but I can't give you a blanket "magic setting". All I'd say is those settings seem kind of wongo to me. Put that mic inside the drum up closer to the beater contact spot and try it there. A blanket is usually overmuffling. You don't need that much. A little dampening is good, a fucking bedroom set is way too much. I use a small pillow that can be turned to just barely touch both heads, barely touch one head, or touch neither.

 

[NotThatBright]

I made a couple new mixes. Finally starting to agree with people that I tend to make my kick too heavy.

View attachment 89588

The above are my kick drum EQ settings for the original. I agree they are way high, but I probably had to put them up so high because I have a comforter inside my drum that drains it of much of its BOOM. As long as I'm screwing around with this drum recording, I'll have to keep the numbers high. Made changes to them, though:

I moved the top (5khz) setting from +12 to +10
the middle (250Hz) setting from -9 to -12
the low (60Hz) setting from +9 to +10

I still used some compression on the kick- on the one file, very little compression. On the other, even less.


Mix #2- Heavier kick, slightly more overhead, regular snare sound (these comparisons are all relative to Mix #3)

https://soundcloud.com/user92696274096/flower-girl2-heavy-bass-cymbal-reg-snare/s-g6e3s

Mix #3- Lighter kick, slightly less overhead, inverted snare sound (the PHASE thing is flipped- I don't know exactly what that does or means, but it made for a higher-pitched snare in this case)

https://soundcloud.com/user92696274096/flower-girl3-lbass-invsnare/s-3AzW6


If you would give a listen and offer an opinion, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[NotThatBright]

Well I wasn't either. This song is probably like 5-10 years before I crawled out of the tunnel.

I've gotten pretty good at fast, consistent, rapid-fire hi-hat stuff. I don't play with dynamics or have many chops, but goddamn I can play those Ramones 8th notes day long. Big arms isn't going to help you. It's all in the technique. and stamina. Less is more - less flailing around means more playing. Be efficient in your movements. Those fast hi-hat notes are all in the wrist and fingers. Lock your elbow in and make all of your movement come from the wrist and fingers. Tops of your hand pointed up at the ceiling. You're moving your hand, not your whole forearm. Pop on an early Ramones or AC/DC album and play along with it. No cut-time cheating with those bands. Play the 8th notes.

Darn. I guess there's no substitute for muscular endurance in this case. Thanks for the tips, I'll start to isolate my wrist and fingers. Do you hold the stick normally? I would choke up on in the past because it was easier on the wrist, but that made it harder when the time came to hit something else with my right hand. What's the conventional wisdom on that?

Those EQ settings seem pretty extreme. But, I'm not there to hear or mess with it. Kick drums do usually need some help, but I can't give you a blanket "magic setting". All I'd say is those settings seem kind of wongo to me. Put that mic inside the drum up closer to the beater contact spot and try it there. A blanket is usually overmuffling. You don't need that much. A little dampening is good, a fucking bedroom set is way too much. I use a small pillow that can be turned to just barely touch both heads, barely touch one head, or touch neither.

Much closer to a bedroom set. Tomorrow I will reevaluate the state of my drums and even legitimately tune the fuckers for once. I also have a 30 snare wire dealie on my 14"x5.5" maple snare. I didn't learn until recently that snares that size are meant to have 20 or so. I might finally get the increased shell sound I've wanted when I swap it out.

 

[rayc]

I remember this song on the radio when I was a kid - I AM old.
The cover is cool.
The problems Greg pointed too are beyond my ken.
There's a build up of midmudishness between the bass & rythm gtr I think.
I think it'll be fine after a few tweaks as recommended.

 

[NotThatBright]

Thanks for the response. I actually put a couple of new mixes up there, #2 and #3. I'm hoping at least one of them got rid of the low end problems. Overhead and snare volumes were also increased.

 

[dobro]

Listened to mix 3. The tempo's right, and I actually prefer the way you gallop through it to the bubblegum pop treatment of the original, complete with Mom on harmonies. I think there might be some issues with the drumming though. You don't sound like a really strong drummer, so can you comp a drum track together that works? I think the backing v's are getting a bit buried, too - when the backing vocals start, they should come out like the sun, yes? Or like the Beach Boys.

 

[NotThatBright]

Mom's not necessary when sonny boy can sing like a girl. I'm sure she's proud. I'm a novice with every instrument, so my recordings will be rife with imperfection, but you can ALWAYS be sure that I enjoyed doing it. And isn't that what really matters.

I agree, some of the background vocals aren't loud enough (and others might be a little too loud). I'll take a look at it.

What did you think of the kick drum sound on mix #3, if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks for listening, by the way.

 

[dobro]

...you can ALWAYS be sure that I enjoyed doing it. And isn't that what really matters.

I think two things matter: having a good time and making good music. When you post stuff here, you'll get feedback on the latter.

What did you think of the kick drum sound on mix #3, if you don't mind me asking?

I didn't like it as much as the kick sound on mix 2, simply because I could hear the kick clearly in mix 2 compared to 3.

If you keep working this one: I like the slightly out-of-control intonations you're getting on the main vocal ("This girl's making me wild crazy happy.") But if you bring up the backing vocals, you might have to redo them. Backing vocals need to be t-i-g-h-t. Tight as a tight thing.

 

[NotThatBright]

I think two things matter: having a good time and making good music. When you post stuff here, you'll get feedback on the latter.

Touché!

I didn't like it as much as the kick sound on mix 2, simply because I could hear the kick clearly in mix 2 compared to 3.

If you keep working this one: I like the slightly out-of-control intonations you're getting on the main vocal ("This girl's making me wild crazy happy.") But if you bring up the backing vocals, you might have to redo them. Backing vocals need to be t-i-g-h-t. Tight as a tight thing.

I was thinking the same thing about the backing vocals... The chorus effect I have on them only masks their flaws to a point. If I increase them, they'd become more obvious, and I don't like singing any more than I have to, unless it's about something interesting like sluts who happen to be in the city. I tend to obsess over kick drum volume and tone more than anything else.

 

[dobro]

I spend maybe twice as much time on backing vocals than main vocals. Way less wiggle room on bvs.