anyone explain this mix problem

[doulos24]

As to your first couple points, it isn't ANYTHING like analog summing. The analog outs of the 001 are being converted back to digital the instant they hit the dm24, so the fact that they are "analog" across the cable is pretty irrelevant (other than adding two stages of conversion for no reason). Also, the summing is the same on all digital devices. 1+1 =2 in PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc. Can't change that fact. Besides, the addition is already done BEFORE it goes to the output D/A and the S/PDIF. Both signals are 100% the exact same bits. That's what makes digital so great. In analog, every path the audio goes through changes it a bit.

the reason is there is no way around it to use the extra channels it only has 8 adat and 2 spif outs I needed 12 thus I had to use the extra analog outs

otherwise I wouldn't have

the summing is the same on all digital devices. 1+1 =2 in PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc. Can't change that fact.

there is alot more to summing then that it's also how the bits are rounded off like for example the first 59 tracks in pro tools mix are fixed 48bit and the rest are rounded down to 24bit they sound diffrent and thats the same program!

I think there are subtle diffrences in the mixdowns of the diffrent daws and I know about null tests, but in my experience there is a diffrence

 

[doulos24]

do you have a stereo field analyzer, something like the Waves PAZ analyzer

I wish i did I've been looking for one for awhile any ideas on a plug in other then waves?

Another thing to check is the main cables coming out of the 001 and going to the speakers. If you're using XLRs (don't know if the 001 supports them or not, or what monitors you have), then make sure both cables have the same pin outs and pints 2 and 3 aren't reversed in one of the cables.

trs outs to trs ins of mackie hr624s monitoring is dead on when i play back program material

 

[doulos24]

You might be hearing a panning law difference between PT and the Tascam. If PT is throttling the center panned stuff a couple dB more than the Tascam because it's using a different center panning curve "law", that could be making the wings sound more prominent, which you hear as a "widening".

I don't know if the Tascam allows you to select different panning curves or not. Check the Tascam manual or help files for "pan laws" and see if you can come up with a setting that might better match what PT does. Otherwise, you might need to adjust it on the PT side.

that could be it actully pro tools pan law is 2.5db ill check out what it is on the tascam

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm not sure I understand how you're going to get a non-wide sample to us to compare to the wide one. And without that comparison, I don't understand how listening to and analyzing just the wide one will tell us a hell of a lot about what made it that way.

I think there are subtle diffrences in the mixdowns of the diffrent daws and I know about null tests, but in my experience there is a diffrence

But certainly not enough of a difference to cause the amount of spread you're referring to.

I'd start to break down the signal chain and systematically eliminate possibilities.

I'd be curious what happens if you pass the stereo mixdown back to the Dm24 and monitor it there instead of the Digi. This can help indicate whether the problem is in the monitoring subsystems.

I'd also be curious as to what would happen if you took the S/PDIF out of the equation (you could do this by doing a test mix from lesser numbers of tracks and sending the mixdown back via either analog or lightpipe).

Analog out with the mixdown would also allow you to bypass the Digi altogether and go straight to the PC., just as a test. If the problem goes away, you know it's not in the Tascam. If it stays, you know it's not in the Digi.

I'd also be curious as to whether the spreading is limited to certain tracks within the mix or certain pan locations; e.g. is it just the guitars that are getting that spread or just those instruments panned less than 50% (does hard panning get spread wider also?)

that could be it actully pro tools pan law is 2.5db ill check out what it is on the tascam

NL5 is right, if you are recording to a stereo track, that shouldn't make a difference. But it certainly couldn't hurt to make sure you are indeed recording to stereo.

G.

 

[NL5]

the reason is there is no way around it to use the extra channels it only has 8 adat and 2 spif outs I needed 12 thus I had to use the extra analog outs

otherwise I wouldn't have

Sorry, I should have worded that a bit better. When I send something out of the D/A and back to the A/D, it is to add some sort of analog effect, so the extra conversions are the price I pay for the benefit of the analog gear. In your instance it's just a negative. Albeit, a necessary one - I understand that. It was implied, I thought, that you were gaining some sort of benefit from it being "analog". I probably misunderstood.

there is alot more to summing then that it's also how the bits are rounded off like for example the first 59 tracks in pro tools mix are fixed 48bit and the rest are rounded down to 24bit they sound diffrent and thats the same program!

I think there are subtle diffrences in the mixdowns of the diffrent daws and I know about null tests, but in my experience there is a diffrence

It really is that simple. Other than the fact that they are converted to floating point numbers to be summed. It is essentially 1+1=2. And if you think you can hear the rounding difference at 48 bits of resolution, your nuts, and besides, it's truncated at 24 bits when it hits the converters, and a bit off 24 bits down the line won't change the final output. Hence, the files null 100%.

Also, if you understand what a null test is, and two samples null, then they are 100% exactly the same. There is NO difference. No difference whatsoever. This isn't a subjective thing like "what preamp sounds best". It's a cold hard fact. If you can find an instance where 1+1 doesn't equal two, you should get out of audio and into mathematics asap.

that could be it actully pro tools pan law is 2.5db ill check out what it is on the tascam

Again, PT should only apply the pan law too mono tracks. If it's applying them to stereo tracks, then it has a bug. Which, is possible - as I said, I remember Finster complaining about some sort of bug with PT and stereo tracks - just can't remember what it was.

You might check out Reaper - especially if you're using PTLE. Fantastic program.

Edit - I found the thread - https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=180300 - It was a Bounce To Disk Stereo track problem. Oops.
.

 

[doulos24]

Again, PT should only apply the pan law too mono tracks. If it's applying them to stereo tracks, then it has a bug. Which, is possible - as I said, I remember Finster complaining about some sort of bug with PT and stereo tracks - just can't remember what it was.

so there is no way that the internal panning monitoring through the headphones of the dm 24 has diffrent pan law then the headphones of the 001?


i wish i could get what was happening on to a track but the issue was in the headphones the dm24 stereo image in the headphones were focused an tight and the 001 much wider but now its fine very freakin odd and i hope it doesnt happen again any time soon

Edit - I found the thread - https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=180300 - It was a Bounce To Disk Stereo track problem. Oops.

and you just said I was crazy that's what I'm talking about I know its not summing, but to me its the end result. I can hear a audible diffrence in the diffrent programs bounce to disk mix downs etc. thats what I ment to say maybe not the summing, but the final wavs sound diffrent to me in each and if you still think I'm crazy well I've been told worse

 

[NL5]

so there is no way that the internal panning monitoring through the headphones of the dm 24 has diffrent pan law then the headphones of the 001?

There shouldn't be any panning law if they are stereo tracks. Panning law is just for mixing mono sources to a stereo track. You are (well should be) monitoring the EXACT same audio in both instances. The only difference will be in the D/A stages of the two devices - which will be different for sure, but not WAY different - especially in the panning. Also, I'd think the DM24 would have slightly better D/A than the 001, so if anything it should sound a hair smaller.

and you just said I was crazy that's what I'm talking about I know its not summing, but to me its the end result. I can hear a audible diffrence in the diffrent programs bounce to disk mix downs etc. thats what I ment to say maybe not the summing, but the final wavs sound diffrent to me in each and if you still think I'm crazy well I've been told worse

You need to re-read that thread. He started doing what you are doing. Recording the mix back to PT, because BTD was screwing things up. BTD just exports the audio to a file. The files in PT played fine. He had an issue with taking them out of PT. You have never said anything about taking them out of PT. Besides, his ultimate solution was that he just needed to change the export settings.......

 

[doulos24]

this is a true story. I was working with a decent artist female vocalist mostly piano synth pop. I got this mix sounding sweet on logic 4 I think it was with a motu 2408 mk1, but when played the bounce back from logic I was so disgusted with how thin the sound was. I dumped everything to a backup drive and mixed it again in cool edit at home and deleted logic off my system and never touched it again.

 

[doulos24]

There shouldn't be any panning law if they are stereo tracks. Panning law is just for mixing mono sources to a stereo track. You are (well should be) monitoring the EXACT same audio in both instances. The only difference will be in the D/A stages of the two devices - which will be different for sure, but not WAY different - especially in the panning. Also, I'd think the DM24 would have slightly better D/A than the 001, so if anything it should sound a hair smaller.

no the tracks are mono all mono going out of the 001 into the dm24 panning with the dm24. in the headphones it sounded great then summed in the dm24 and outputted stereo via spidif into pro tools via a stereo track when i listen back in ptle it sounded wider then in the dm24

 

[NL5]

no the tracks are mono all mono going out of the 001 into the dm24 panning with the dm24. in the headphones it sounded great then summed in the dm24 and outputted stereo via spidif into pro tools via a stereo track when i listen back in ptle it sounded wider then in the dm24

Really?

OK, one more time. You SHOULD be listening to the stereo master buss when you mix on the DM24. It has a pan law, yes. However, once the tracks are summed, the pan law is already applied. The stereo master buss output is in binary - all digital. That signal is sent to the D/A and the S/PDIF outputs - the EXACT same signal, and is post any DM24 processing. It is then recorded in PTLE. PTLE will not apply a "pan law" to a stereo track, as it has already been applied when it was made "stereo" - this applies to any stereo file. So, you are just playing back the EXACT same file. 100% exact. if you are not, something is way screwey somewhere, and not working as intended.

 

[doulos24]

if you are not, something is way screwey somewhere, and not working as intended.

indeed I couldn't explain it either. I tried everything to figure out what was up, but the thing was I couldn't monitor the ptle track cause of spif mirroring when I listened back i heard my kick and snare panned hard left and right

 

[NL5]

indeed I couldn't explain it either. I tried everything to figure out what was up, but the thing was I couldn't monitor the ptle track cause of spif mirroring when I listened back i heard my kick and snare panned hard left and right

You're monitoring the wrong buss then. That's you're problem. If you are monitoring the same buss as the s/pdif is on, you ARE monitoring the PTLE input. If you were using analog in on the 001, then you would need to monitor off the 001. Since you are not, you are.

Check your connections again. You should be monitoring off the master buss, and outputing to the 001 via the master buss s/pdif outputs. Problem solved.