anyone explain this mix problem

D

doulos24

New member
OK guys I got my computer in a nice lil iso box and I decided it would be cool to remix a track I had back in the day with a new kind of semi outboard setup so here it goes.

12 tracks recorded 44.1k
001 clock set to adat 44.1k to a dm24 the dm24 has a better clock then the 001 I can hear a huge diffrence in the clocks

12 tracks outputed from a digi 001 8 analog 4 adat

to 12 inputs on dm24

process the tracks using the mixer's pan, eqs compressors etc.
mix autiomation using hui and ptle the pans go away when you send the tracks out so no pan automation just levels

output the whole mix to the 001 via spif of the dm24

alright it sounds freakin great on the dm 24 everything is jammin along then I output it back to 001 via spif and play it back. the stereo spread is freakin wide on the mix I mean really wide compared to the dm24 and if i narrow the mix it still doesn't sound the same as my dm 24 mix what gives???
 
im half expecting to see ethan of realtraps to pop in and tell me its my room and i need to buy 2 or 4 of his real trap pan absorbers to bring my stereo spread inline :D
 
Hmmm, two tracks always sound a hair different than a multi track, but if it sounds that different, you have something set wrong somewhere.
 
doulos24 said:
im half expecting to see ethan of realtraps to pop in and tell me its my room and i need to buy 2 or 4 of his real trap pan absorbers to bring my stereo spread inline :D
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2 or 4? Everybody needs at least 10 or 12 bass traps .No, 14, or 16 (I have 17 and need/want more);)

Ciro
 
Intersting that you mention the clocking. Make sure you have everything slaved to the DM24. There's a possibility maybe that clocking differences across the S/PDIF are causing a kind of phase delay in one of the channels due to uneven clocking.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Intersting that you mention the clocking. Make sure you have everything slaved to the DM24. There's a possibility maybe that clocking differences across the S/PDIF are causing a kind of phase delay in one of the channels due to uneven clocking.

G.
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That's quite interesting.

Wouldn't the clocks be the same in a stereo tracks though, no matter where they are clocking from? I could see it causing issues, but not having the two channels out of sync. Seems to me, you would have to have a serious internal error for that to occur.
 
Intersting that you mention the clocking. Make sure you have everything slaved to the DM24. There's a possibility maybe that clocking differences across the S/PDIF are causing a kind of phase delay in one of the channels due to uneven clocking.
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I'm lost I only thought there was 1 clock in the 001

the 001 is set to external adat clock
the dm 24 is set to internal clock

am i missing something?
 
doulos24 said:
I'm lost I only thought there was 1 clock in the 001

the 001 is set to external adat clock
the dm 24 is set to internal clock

am i missing something?
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There is only one clock in the 001, but in your set-up, you shouldn't be using it. Looks like you aren't and have it set right. I still don't see how two channels could get off of one another in the same "pipe". They HAVE to run off the same clock. If they were set different, you'd get syncing problems between the two devices, not between the two channels.
 
NL5 said:
Wouldn't the clocks be the same in a stereo tracks though, no matter where they are clocking from?
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Yeah, you guys are right, there is only one clock per device, and yeah I agree that it sounds like doulos has his setup config'd right.

I was just speculating (read: guessing ;)) at a possible area of cause based upon symptom. What commonly causes a mix to sound wider? Someone/something playing with phase delays in the milliseconds. What commonly causes blurring in the spacial location of a mix? Often times clocking issues are blamed for that.

I don't know enough about the design of the clocking circuits to say anything specific for sure or say that if you do A that B will be fixed, but I do offer up the possibility that - especially since we are talking about a digital S/PDIF xfer here - that there might be *something* jitter-like happening in the digital timing area causing a psychoacoustic image shift.

Or maybe not ;).

But it's a guess I think worth testing or at least looking at a little further unless/until someone comes in with a better idea. Perhaps a simple start would be to try different master/slave combinations - and/or try the transfer in reverse - and see if a pattern shows itself. Even a different S/PDIF cable (is it a true S/PDIF cable?) may make a difference.

G.
 
I spent about 250 on the cables 8 trs 6 foot good plated ones and 2 12 feet spidif cables this is fustrating cause if I cant trust my mix on the dm24 why do I have it? the mix sounds great comming off the speakers and off the headphones both running through the dm24 then on mixdown though spidif its wider not smeared not ugly just not what I want I want it like I Mixed it thus the point of a 2,400 dollar mixer ;)

would any of you care to hear samples and posibly have an option for me?
 
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doulos24 said:
I spent about 250 on the cables 8 trs 6 foot good plated ones and 2 12 feet spidif cables this is fustrating cause if I cant trust my mix on the dm24 why do I have it? the mix sounds great comming off the speakers and off the headphones both running through the dm24 then on mixdown though spidif its wider not smeared not ugly just not what I want I want it like I Mixed it thus the point of a 2,400 dollar mixer ;)

would any of you care to hear samples and posibly have an option for me?
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Yeah, put up some samples. I don't think it's the mixer that's at fault though - I'd guess operator error somewhere - otherwise, the mix would sound bad off the board.

Quick question though. That's a digital mixing board, right? Maybe you have some sort of problem with the D/A for the monitor outputs? The audio should be 100% the same if it gets added digitally, then outputed to the monitors and the S/P DIF. I has thinking it was analog - I get a slightly different mix than what comes off the board, but only slightly.
 
it's digital again here is what I'm doing I'm sending 8 analog outputs from the 001 and 4 adat outputs from the 001 to my dm24 the 001 is slaved to the dm24 then I'm mixing everything with the dm24 then sending all the tracks out of the dm24 via spif back into the 001 but when I'm monitoring on the dm 24 through the monitors and headphones it sounds great, but playing the mix back on the 001 it sounds a lot wider. I'll post some samples I think I'm just serriously outgrowing this system and need more outputs and a mix down deck of some kind

I figured it out but I don't like it. the stereo seperation of ptle is + -12 steps diffrent then the mixer so full wide on my mixer is about 88L and 88 R in ptle

so if i pan something say 40 L 40 R it actully sounds more like 52 L and 52R it does it with the analog stereo outs as well so I'm stuck

:mad::mad::mad:

I'm going to do a mono test if mono sounds diffrent I give up
 
doulos24 said:
it's digital again here is what I'm doing I'm sending 8 analog outputs from the 001 and 4 adat outputs from the 001 to my dm24 the 001 is slaved to the dm24 then I'm mixing everything with the dm24 then sending all the tracks out of the dm24 via spif back into the 001 but when I'm monitoring on the dm 24 through the monitors and headphones it sounds great, but playing the mix back on the 001 it sounds a lot wider. I'll post some samples I think I'm just serriously outgrowing this system and need more outputs and a mix down deck of some kind

I figured it out but I don't like it. the stereo seperation of ptle is + -12 steps diffrent then the mixer so full wide on my mixer is about 88L and 88 R in ptle

so if i pan something say 40 L 40 R it actully sounds more like 52 L and 52R it does it with the analog stereo outs as well so I'm stuck

:mad::mad::mad:

I'm going to do a mono test if mono sounds diffrent I give up
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I don't see how that is possible. You are mixing on the DM24. It is mixing digitally. The "bits" you are listening to during mixing are EXACTLY the same "bits" as you are recording to the 001. Are you recording the two channels to mono channels? I know PT doesn't like stereo files very well. If it's changing the bits you are recording, then your copy of PT is seriously screwed up. It should be copying the bits from the converter exactly as they are converted.
 
doulos24 said:
but playing the mix back on the 001 it sounds a lot wider.
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You might be hearing a panning law difference between PT and the Tascam. If PT is throttling the center panned stuff a couple dB more than the Tascam because it's using a different center panning curve "law", that could be making the wings sound more prominent, which you hear as a "widening".

I don't know if the Tascam allows you to select different panning curves or not. Check the Tascam manual or help files for "pan laws" and see if you can come up with a setting that might better match what PT does. Otherwise, you might need to adjust it on the PT side.

For more general info on panning laws, check out http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/

G.
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
You might be hearing a panning law difference between PT and the Tascam. If PT is throttling the center panned stuff a couple dB more than the Tascam because it's using a different center panning curve "law", that could be making the wings sound more prominent, which you hear as a "widening".

I don't know if the Tascam allows you to select different panning curves or not. Check the Tascam manual or help files for "pan laws" and see if you can come up with a setting that might better match what PT does. Otherwise, you might need to adjust it on the PT side.

For more general info on panning laws, check out http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/
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That doesn't really apply. Pan Law only applies to mono tracks as far as I've ever known, and the article you cited says the same thing. He's recording to a stereo track.

doulos24 said:
its very much posible no im recording to a single stereo file via spidif
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No, it's not. Well, let me rephrase that. Unless you have something set completely screwy, or are monitoring a different buss other than the stereo out of the Tascam it is impossible for them to be different. The bits going out of the Tascam's D/A and going into the S/PDIF output are EXACTLY the same. Down to the last bit. It's not like analog console summing.

Now, it seems to me that Finster used to complain about PTLE and stereo tracks, but I can't for the life of me think what the issue was. I don't use PT, and if I'm working out of a studio that only has PT, I just hire a PTM to run the computer. :) I'd suggest making sure that you are wired up correctly, and that there is no processing on the PT session upon playback of the stereo file - there is no reason for PT not to be outputting the EXACT bits inputed if there is no processing.
 
No, it's not. Well, let me rephrase that. Unless you have something set completely screwy, or are monitoring a different buss other than the stereo out of the Tascam it is impossible for them to be different. The bits going out of the Tascam's D/A and going into the S/PDIF output are EXACTLY the same. Down to the last bit. It's not like analog console summing.
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It is like analog summing for 2 reasons 1 I'm also using the analog outputs from ptle and 2 I'm using entirely diffrent summing math in the dm24 vs ptles mixdown process dunno what was going on but it seemed to have fixed it's self this morning and I can't duplicate the problem so knock on wood maybe it will stay fixed!
 
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doulos24 said:
It is like analog summing for 2 reasons 1 I'm also using the analog outputs from ptle and 2 I'm using entirely diffrent summing math in the dm24 vs ptles mixdown process

I'm going to post audio examples I've been doing this a long time this doesn't seem louder or wider it is wider no question I'm not insane lol
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I'm not saying it's not wider, just for the record. :)

As to your first couple points, it isn't ANYTHING like analog summing. The analog outs of the 001 are being converted back to digital the instant they hit the dm24, so the fact that they are "analog" across the cable is pretty irrelevant (other than adding two stages of conversion for no reason). Also, the summing is the same on all digital devices. 1+1 =2 in PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc. Can't change that fact. Besides, the addition is already done BEFORE it goes to the output D/A and the S/PDIF. Both signals are 100% the exact same bits. That's what makes digital so great. In analog, every path the audio goes through changes it a bit.

If you search for it, Pipeline put up some summing tests from all the major DAW app's, and nulled them all. There is no difference in the summing. (there are lots of differences in the app's, but summing ain't one of them). :D
 
Do you have some kind of a stereo field analyzer, something like the Waves PAZ analyzer would help you see if the the left and right hand channels in PT are out of phase. Another thing to check is the main cables coming out of the 001 and going to the speakers. If you're using XLRs (don't know if the 001 supports them or not, or what monitors you have), then make sure both cables have the same pin outs and pints 2 and 3 aren't reversed in one of the cables.
 
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