Anybody else frustrated with Nowhereradio?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CyanJaguar
  • Start date Start date
p.s., nothing against you Cyan, the attitude just rubs me the wrong way!

W.
 
Lt. Bob said:
What?

Now don't mistake what I'm saying 'cause I'm a big, big fan of SLuiCe and his work. He's truly awesome but what do you listen to that makes you think he has commercial appeal? I mean.......Frank Zappa was a freakin' genius but never managed to have any commercial appeal at all. Yes....he has his followers but the very definition of commercial appeal means that the masses will like and buy it and they don't. Plus, there is absolutely no indication that the masses will ever in any large numbers support music that takes thinking to listen to and there are no examples I can think of where a commercially successful artist changes time signatures every three measures. Perhaps you might correct me on this but I bet you can't think of more than a couple...if that.

Now if by commercial appeal you mean a smallish niche market....then I'm with you. SLuiCe could certainly accomplish that. But to have the masses be discerning enough to buy his stuff in large quantities.?.....no way.
And the same goes for anything else that isn't mindless drivel.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Sluice is too smart for the mindless drivel camp. But I listened to a Beck (the NEW guy) album last night, and Sluice is a lot more interesting than the Beck album. Better writing. I think Beck sells pretty damn well, so maybe Sluice has a shot.

Now, when I want mindless drivel, I want MINDLESS drivel!
 
Cyan--I think you've brought up something VERY interesting, which SHOULD be discussed more. See, I bet I could pick a CD and play it for 100 people here. That 100 would probably concur as to which song is the best, if they were making a decision to release a single. Radio stations do stuff like this all the time--surveying the public to see what gets the best reaction.

In the early sixties, when the top 30 was the AM pop format, there were songs that just jumped off the radio. You didn't even have to like them, but they were singable songs and they caught the ear of the public. Me and my 12 year old pals usd to walk around the neighborhood at night singing them, cause they were so easy to remember! Chug-A-Lug, Mrs. Brown You've Got A Lovely Daughter, Sum-Sum-Summertime--Can't Explain--Big John--oh hell, I'm really dating myself!

My unscientific hunch is that the brain processes rhythm and melody in certain ways. It likes repetition--thus the incessant chant for 'hooks--give me hooks!'. There are certain structures that the human mind finds satisfying and delicious, on an audio level. The Beatles became masters of this type of music--whether by insight, gift, luck or intuition, I don't know. Definable, easily digested chunks of information which repeat.

On top of that, there is the stellar performance which pushes it over the top.

It bugs me that so few people know how to write good pop/rock songs. There is no attention paid to melodic repetition via lyric meter, or any attempt to really work a theme beyond a subjective reality which no one listening is really privy to--but thats just me, I guess. Not that I can write something great at will. Hell, man, its really HARD WORK to make something that stands out from the pack. Often, you can put the work in and still have nothing great to show.

Cyans wildcard is the one that gets you excited to hear the music. It does stuff to your mind and body and soul.

Personally, in this forum, I'd rather hear a great song done on 4 track cassette than a great recording of a lousy song. My belief is that the only way to become a great artist is to become a great writer. If you skip this step, all the studio brilliance you posess doesn't amount to anything. I encourage anybody who wants to succeed in music to write and write a lot. Then write some more. The wildcard is attained by following that road 99% of the time. Every once in a while, somebody gets beginners luck or is blessed with some heavenly gift. Usually, its somebody's passion that leads them to greatness.

Anyway, its worth talking about.
 
Hey,Crawdad!






Will you marry me?


























....but seriously.Cyanj's argumant was a lost cause to begin with.I gotta say again that this is a mixing clinic.If you don't wanna offer mix comments/suggestions,then why are you here?If you just want to find "good music",why start this argument?I hate country music,but I've heard some most excellent country-ish music here.I don't go and say "hey country sucks so I'm never gonna listen to an artist if it sounds counrty in the first minute".Why deprive myself of the experience.Hearing these peoples songs lets you hear a part of their soul,their heart,their mind.I don't want to get too metaphysical but,that impacts me more than the"hook" or (I hate this term)"wildcard".To know that someone is spilling a piece of themselves for the world to see,veiw,possibley even critisize is an enormous act ,IMO.Give me your lousy musician,your overworked recording engineer,your poor and lonely solo artist,your newbies,your oldtimers....I want to hear from everyone and no holds barred.

p.s.-this thread was very entertaining even though it was infuriating.
 
I think some people were a bit hard on ol' Cyan! I find the whole 'Wildcard' thing humorous.. Everyone has their thing, and the wildcard phrase is Cyan's thing..

I'll add some random thoughts..


Waldo is a great guy no doubt, and I know he means well..


1 - I agree that Nowhere has been frustrating for awhile now.. It's frustrated me and the non BBS friends I have sent there..


2 - I know it's been discussed and I'm aware Waldo is doing everything he can to fix it..


3 - I DO NOT LIKE AT ALL the fact that people get pissed if any negative comments are aimed at Nowhere.. I think the complaints are legitimate..


4 - I HATE IT when people get flamed for offering alternatives.. I know Waldo is like a friend to some of us, but he has to understand the situation.. It's business, not personal.. When I say 'business,' I don't mean money either..


5 - Regardless of what anyone might say, Nowhere goes down more than any site I have personally seen.. This can be argued all day, but it is true despite some of the comments I read..


6 - I have been and still am a supporter of Nowhere.. I will continue to support him if not only for the enjoyment I got from it in the past.. However, I will be starting my own website very soon..


7 - Expressing dissatisfaction is something that should be done.. That is the only way things will get better..


8 - I agree with Cyan that Sluice does have some commercial appeal..


9 - Waldo said - " As far as NWR, OPEN YOUR EYES, the problem is KNOWN, and SOLUTIONS have been POSED, what have YOU done about it?"

This statement bothers me.. It's not anyones job to do anything about it.. It's disturbing to me always reading about the critical level Nowhere is operating at..

You say Nowhere will never die, but what kind of life is it to be living in a hospital bed hooked up to life support and being fed intravenously...


10 - I think your a great guy Waldo, but some things are really starting to annoy me man.. It's great that people always get your back, and I'm on my second year of being a paying member, but I think people have got to keep it real.. Nowhere goes down a lot for whatever reason..


and it is frustrating like the title of this thread..



Hope you understand where I'm coming from brother..
 
this thread is getting me car sick.....

btw:
How close are we to getting that order for the color shirts put in W? .....Im just curious of what the ETA is on shipment.
 
I've tried to read this thread multiple times, perhaps I'm too dumb, perhaps I'm from holland but I'm having serious trouble understanding what this (the wildcard thing) is all about....and does it matter? Perhaps it's because 'commercial thinking' isn't in my genes.

I did understand B.'s random thoughts, though. I feel sympathy for his opinions on NWR, but I don't expect much for only $2,- a month. I can hardly call myself a customer when I pay that little money. So I can live with the website being down once in a while. If I want better services, I can get it at another place but it'll cost me more I'm sure.

Furthermore, if the website goes down...I usually make a song. Or kiss my wife. In any case, not frustating at all.

Btw, I hope your car is feeling better now Guernica....:D
 
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You bastard! :D

I'm the King Of Editing....name it and I edit it LOL
 
...actually, Im onboard w/ the concern for Nowhere's future stability. ....I am a contractor, and i understand that we are talking about totally different businesses.... and sympathize w/ Waldo in his attempts to do what it takes to keep his biz running as best as possible. But, if I were to submit an estimate for a project.....and then afterwards hit a client w/ "I'll build that building for you..... but if material costs go up, I may not be able to finish...." I would catch some shit too. Though Im not well versed in the technology thats involved w/ putting up a web-based operation, i do understand the basic fundimentals of business......
......create product>provide product>get paid for product.

no offense W. ....just sharing some concern.g
 
crawdad said:
Cyan--I think you've brought up something VERY interesting, which SHOULD be discussed more. See, I bet I could pick a CD and play it for 100 people here. That 100 would probably concur as to which song is the best, if they were making a decision to release a single. Radio stations do stuff like this all the time--surveying the public to see what gets the best reaction.

In the early sixties, when the top 30 was the AM pop format, there were songs that just jumped off the radio. You didn't even have to like them, but they were singable songs and they caught the ear of the public. Me and my 12 year old pals usd to walk around the neighborhood at night singing them, cause they were so easy to remember! Chug-A-Lug, Mrs. Brown You've Got A Lovely Daughter, Sum-Sum-Summertime--Can't Explain--Big John--oh hell, I'm really dating myself!

My unscientific hunch is that the brain processes rhythm and melody in certain ways. It likes repetition--thus the incessant chant for 'hooks--give me hooks!'. There are certain structures that the human mind finds satisfying and delicious, on an audio level. The Beatles became masters of this type of music--whether by insight, gift, luck or intuition, I don't know. Definable, easily digested chunks of information which repeat.

On top of that, there is the stellar performance which pushes it over the top.

It bugs me that so few people know how to write good pop/rock songs. There is no attention paid to melodic repetition via lyric meter, or any attempt to really work a theme beyond a subjective reality which no one listening is really privy to--but thats just me, I guess. Not that I can write something great at will. Hell, man, its really HARD WORK to make something that stands out from the pack. Often, you can put the work in and still have nothing great to show.

Cyans wildcard is the one that gets you excited to hear the music. It does stuff to your mind and body and soul.

Personally, in this forum, I'd rather hear a great song done on 4 track cassette than a great recording of a lousy song. My belief is that the only way to become a great artist is to become a great writer. If you skip this step, all the studio brilliance you posess doesn't amount to anything. I encourage anybody who wants to succeed in music to write and write a lot. Then write some more. The wildcard is attained by following that road 99% of the time. Every once in a while, somebody gets beginners luck or is blessed with some heavenly gift. Usually, its somebody's passion that leads them to greatness.

Anyway, its worth talking about.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with everything you said.

I actually have experience with the public opinion thing. When I present my CD to people to hear, they inevitably come out with the same two songs as their favorites. A person can listen to "Amorita" or "I'm begging please" and remember the melody for days. They are "sticky"

I agree that there are songs that just jump off the radio. The first time I heard Matchbox Twenty's bent, ,I was half asleep. IT woke me up and I knew that it would quickly climb to the top. There are numerous examples of times when I have heard a song once and known immediately that it would soon be played out on radio.

Which brings me to my next point of agreement. I really do think that its something in us that allows us to react to certain songs certain ways. I posted a thread one time stating a hunch that I thought that there was a chemical reaction in our bodies when we hear wildcards. Some wildcards (certain note intervals, harmonies, and crescendos) are so strong that my hair stands on end. I mean, when I hear the wildcard, I can literally feel something physical happening. I can only say its a chemical reaction, or, as you say more aptly, a brain process. I think its like when women(or some men , me included) are brought to tears by watching a very emotional scene in a movie. Usually, that scene has someone crying and that triggers a reaction to make the viewers cry as well. That's what I liken it to.

It bugs me too that people dont pay attention to what matters most, The music. As WISC says, when he puts a song on here, he is looking for criticism on the recording. 100 people can hear the same kick within a song and feel 100 ways about it. I think people should start with a melodic, harmonic foundation in order to create magical music.
 
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
See all the smiley faces?! I'm only posting this response because I think it's an interesting discussion.NOT because I'm all worked up over it. This is a discussion where there is no way to come to a definitive conclusion....it's all a matter of opinion.

Now, having said that... (smiley faces, remember?) I don't agree with my good friend crawdad that if you played a song for 100 people they would all pick out the hit song. First off.....I doubt you would have more than a third or possibly half that would like whatever style of music enough to be able to make an informed decision as to what might be a hit.
For example, if someone hates country (many do) then there is no way they could pick the song that'll be a hit because they don't have the frame of reference. They are not in tune enough with what the country audience likes and simple having a hook is not sufficient...even if it's a good hook.
All right...a different example.....you could play rap or hip hop for me all day and I wouldn't have a clue as to what might be a hit. I would notice anything that had qualities that I think are special (a wildcard) but it would almost certainly not be a hit 'cause since I loath rap and hip hop, the very things that would make me like it would be the things that make fans of that genre not like it since I would be drawn to things that avoid the traditional hip hop sounds. And I'll put my ears and knowledge of music up against anyone. But I could not possibly identify what song would appeal to rapperlovers 'cause I don't like it.

That's all I'm saying........everyone's talking as if there's some sort of universal quality that makes something a hit and I don't see how you can say that........if you could do that, then there would be nothing but hits 'cause they'd have that thing down.
Al, those publishers that you cited.....are you saying they had nothing but a string of hits 'cause of their superhuman ability to judge songs? You know they didn't. If you could go through all the tunes they approved I'd bet they had more losers than hits. Not that they don't know their biz, but that's just the way it is.

As for commercial appeal....I think it depends on how you're defining it. Once more I'll use SLuiCe as an example 'cause he knows I admire his work so I hope it'll be allright.
IF you define commercial appeal as simply having a market then I agree....his stuff has that level of appeal. There is certainly a market for his stuff......I would buy it and I will buy it when it comes out. And, just like Zappa or other eclectic genuis-type musicians, there would be a group that would gravitate towards his amazing music and snap it up.
But to me, commercial appeal (which I care nothing about myself) means having the masses buy it. And by the masses, we're talking about 15-25 year olds. And I'm playing in a band with kids that age and playing some of the more popular clubs around here for the college kids. The kids in the band pick the songs and I just play. Hell, I haven't even heard a lot of what we do. :D And I can tell you that the kids (in my mind; the masses) go for stuff they can dance to.....almost period. They want rockin' drivin' beats and they do want hooks but the hooks they like are very simple. The masses do not buy Zappa....the masses want something simpler because the masses have the brainpower of yogurt when it comes to music. When I play stuff from this board for the guys I play with and their friends......I get almost universal indifference to them. I'm not sure why but I think it's 'cause they haven't been told by the radio that it's ok to like that song. Like I said....yogurt!:D

Once again, I do agree that there is a market for smart music (i.e. SLuiCe's) I just disagree on the definition of commercial appeal.


EDIT: This thread is a very interesting example of how a thread can start on one subject and morph into an entirely different discussion. :)
 
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"he`s a real nowhere man" but "dont take my heart, my achy breaky heart" over it. I have my "suspicions" that "time is tight" and the answer my friend is "blowing in the wind" on "little wing"s, and "thats the way I like it". Just because "you dont know like I know" "aint gonna change" nothing and force me to say hey hey you you "get off of my cloud". Some folks think they are gonna be a "paperback writer, but in reality they just got that "Sat night fever" and simply "groovin the night away". Believe me before long a "a change is gonna come" . I`ll just "roll with it baby" and "leave my blues at home".

touche!
reposte?

;)

:for Uncle Bob. your right, some of those yogurt songs did seem to rake in a few millions. SO somebody was actually buying them for some reason. :)
 
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One of these days (I'm gonna cut you into little pieces). So be carefull with that axe Eugene.
 
Uncle Jed, Ellie Mae took the keys to my new "3 wheeled Double Naught Spy Motorsickle" and let that danged monkey swoller 'em!!!
;)
 
Stratomaster said:
I can post songs there for free and download them in a few minutes-whats to complain about? Deleting a song I don't want to keep takes what? 5 seconds?
Click to expand...


some people pay so that others can go NWR and stream their music.....

maybe if more people paid, we wouldnt be having this argument.....

people should get what they pay for without having to buy the shirt......
 
Samij,

In nearly 5 years, NoWhere has been down a total of 37 hours.

8,760 hours in a year, meaning 43,800 hours in 5 years. Do the math. 'Down more than any other site?' Please!

The internet relies on BILLIONS of machines, and wires to get the information to you. If any ONE of those machines goes down (that's right, any one) then someone will experience an interuption, even if it's just one site. Is this something I can control? No, I do NOT have control over those BILLIONS of servers and lines!

The LAST three outtages, were a result of a major line in Calgary going down, the line that feeds more than HALF of the internet to servers and clients throughout the city. COMPLETELY out of my control!! Would you blame me if a tornado took out the server too?

Sure, even I want 100% up time, but NOBODY, and I mean NOT A SINGLE NET BUSINESS IN THE WORLD can guaruntee that. Most don't even guaruntee 99.9% up time. And guess what? We've never dropped below 99.9%!!

'Business, not personal?' Samij, if this was business, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing it for nothing. This is my own personal interest in helping the indie movement, and my love for music.

Samij, look back in the past. NEVER did I start ANY Of these threads. OTHERS did, and I've had to step in and defend. YOU GUYS are the ones who keep bringing up that NWR is 'critical', AND I have to come in to explain what's up, which again gets taken out of context!

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I TOLD PEOPLE NOT TO START THREADS LIKE THIS HERE?

Would it make any difference if I called NWR a 'Public Radio Station'? Would you start treating it different?

Would it make a difference if I told you I've donated 8 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, for 5 years of my time, let alone several hundred dollars a month out of my own pocket to ensure it stays alive?

Heck, for the first couple years NOBODY paid anything but me, and the advertisers... And I would have kept it that way if I could!

Guernica> "I'll build that building for you..... but if material costs go up, I may not be able to finish...."

That's exactly what you WOULD get, I was a contractor, before some injuries put me out of the job. The client just has to pay more for the materials (only reason they wouldn't is if EVERYTHING was purchased at the time of the quote, which is rare!), or the job won't get done. Simple reason, would YOU work for free? Guess what, I AM!

Now, don't think this post had angered tones in it, just frustrated. I feel events have transpired like this since I put out feelers to 'move to the next level' in December:

1) Waldo requests support, volunteers, and any contribution of equipment that people can offer to upgrade NWR, and start the NWR4 revision running.
2) Zero response in three weeks time.
3) Old database/media server begins to fail.
4) Post appears about NWR being down on HR.
5) Waldo appears and states that the server may be permanently dead. (Yep, server would be permanently dead, HOWEVER that would mean the database would move over to the second media server, and NWR would go ON, but would be offline for as long as a week while changes were made, ALOT of you missed that)
6) Waldo patches it, things are back to normal.
7) Telus begins having major issues with upgrades to its network centers. Telus lines crash throughout half the city, thus NWR's database server cannot talk to the main HTML server.
8) Posts appear that NWR is down on HR, paranoia like, oh somethings horribly wrong with NWR, oh Waldo must have fucked up, oh he must be begging for money, fuck. (How many people would know if you didn't make these posts? How about just email me to find out what's up?)
9) Waldo waits up until 9AM to see if the lines come back (after working 34 hours on misc. servers in the city that called him on emergencies due to this outtage and others)
10) Lines finally come up, and things are back to normal.
11 Repeat 7 through 10 twice more.
12) Waldo deals with complaints, bitching, and public posts that read as attacks and 'avoid doing anything for NWR because they might go down' mentality.

THERE WAS JACK ALL I COULD DO ABOUT 99% OF THE OUTTAGES THAT OCCURED, I DO NOT CONTROL THE WORLD!

Now, instead of waisting all this energy BITCHING people, how about you DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Now, am I saying, 'fork over your money?' HELL NO. I've asked for volunteers for dozens of things, just time. Spare gear? Sure, can be used. ANYTHING, just YOU think of it. NWR is supposed to be a community of musicians working TOGETHER for the greater good. Not just me at the front to be blaimed if something doesn't work!

I'm getting sick of this!

W.
 
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