Amp Prices... I'm outraged!

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nonovice said:
...soon enough amps will be merely nostalgic in value as well.
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Nah, I don't believe that for a minute. I can remember back in the 70's when the first synthesizers with "guitar" sounds on them, folks were predicting that guitarists and amps would be extinct in 10 years. That didn't happen and IMO this won't, either.

It's like saying that online sex will replace the real thing. ;^)
 
Hmmm...

I don't know man seems like enough kids are going to be brought up on music recorded completely in a digital domain (software, plugins, amp mods etc.) thier are plenty of musicians already who realy dig the technology and are using it live and in the studio. Just the efficancy of an amp sim alone and the increase of diy records will at least necessitate a decline in amp prices. Or their obseletion. I maen who gonna spend 5k on a boutiqe setup when the best di's and pre are at most a 1/5 the price. Even joe pass started using a d/i box. He made a state ment that I thought was wonderful. If the house system sounds good your tone will be good. if not all the amps in the world wont save your tone. I used a tone master for years now it just looks ugly hehehe.
 
There will always be some of us who like the old stuff...like my '63 Silvertone Twin Twelve. Trends may come and trends may go, but musicians who are not totally into being trendy will forever be looking for their own voice. Take Light's words to heart, and let's invert them a little: you'll never have your own voice if all you use is what's current and fashionable. For most garage musicians, that's not a problem. For players who are serious (regardless of their visibility or lack of it) popular amps and guitars are no more suited to them than popular music.
 
Not only are amps going to be obsolete, music will be obsolete.

In the future, you'll be able to plug your brain directly into a machine that will give you the same feeling you get when listening to music, thus bypassing the middleman.

So, you should all sell all of your gear. Amps, mics, guitars, everything. Fortunately, I'm thinking of starting a museum and will buy it at pennies on the dollar (which is much more than you'll get once everything is obsolete). Act now! Don't delay! Limited time offer!
 
I just thought I would throw this out there...

I just picked up a hand-made jtm 45 clone for $850

and a refurbished 1965 blackface bassman, with 2x12 cab, for about $750.

so whats all this talk about high prices?
 
Funny

Sorry guys I still disagree plenty of greats used similar gear, it was their imagination tht made them unique. The ability to create as quickly as we concive is a blessing not a curse. JAZZ FROM HELL was Great record done by Frank Zappa on a synclavier. But it was his imagination and composition that made it great. Plenty of great rockers have used a gibson and a marshall, a strat and a fender etc. And Many great players will use a pod and a (enter a guitar name here). Or a PSA etc. And Theres nothing wrong with that. All were disscusing here is taste, and 30 years of tube whosa fudge is dilluting your ability to here anything better. This is not ment as slam just my subjective review of facts. People said that digital recording would not catch on for the same reasons (that it lacked warmth). But Honestly it is a more accurate representation of the sound especially at higher bit and sample rates. So as digital gear becomes the norm those great few artists who embrace it will be ahead not behind.
 
Who?!

The same poeple who are saying film looks better than hd. They think hd won't catch on for the same reasons. That Film looks better; and it doesn't. It only looks diffrent. Do a serach on film these arguments always come up when the technology challenges the traditional. Same thing happened when it was tape vs. digital. I'm not looking to convice anyone. And maybe I'm wrong that doesn't bother me. I'll make music however I can. But it seems silly to defend somthing as superfluous as an amp. When everyone is saying it's the touch that counts. Clapton sounds like Clapton Hendrix like Hendrix. Not Like a guitar or an amp. I sound like me Becuase of the care and love of what I'm doing. When you don't care thats when every II V I on jazz records would sound the same. But they don't becuase the players care... And usually not about there gear at least not most of the good ones. Hell Jim Marshal even said Hendrix was just happy to have an amp no mods or anything.. It's upsetting that a player needs tone to define him. Let your soul define you. thats all im saying.
 
nonovice said:
Another 10 years of amp sims (if that) amp makers are going to pay dearly for a lack of vision. Yell all you want but tape is nearly dead and soon enough amps will be merely nostalgic in value as well. (times are a changing)
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It's funny how this thread has morphed into a amp modeller vs. tube amp debate. Like this hasn't been discussed ad nauseum already! :D

I think you are right to a certain extent. I think it may take 10 years or longer, but eventually the amp modellers will sound as good as the real thing. I have alot of faith in technology.

But they aren't there yet in my opinion. I know a guy who thinks it's stupid to buy preamps, mics, compressors, etc. He thinks buying hardware is a waste and you should focus on modellers (mic and amp) as well as plug-ins. He's delusional in my opinion... his recordings sound pretty good but nothing like what's being produced by the majors.

I'll trust the market on these issues (and my ears). If digital is where it's at and analog hardware is obsolete then that means Nuemanns, STC-8s, and Neve preamps will be dirt cheap (how much are Studers going for these days?). :D Until then... you'll have to pry my Budda from my cold dead hands.
 
Good Post Scott

, and timely humor to match. I'm going to go spank my ego now. HAHAHAH
 
Ummmmm, England! I bet those cherrio MF's get paid pretty darn good as well..........

edit - dammit - outlaws beat me to the punch. I do have a 1974X that clearly says MADE IN ENGLAND (by an English MF)
__________________
Jeez,,,,, go easy on us english !
Costs as much as you guys pay to buy marshalls over here as well.
Come over here and try to get a job that pays anything like what you guys earn,,, you will be shocked. Try and buy a tank full of petrol , with the loose change in your pocket,, your havin a laugh,,,
rxkev,, english mf.
 
fuckingnovice said:
Sorry guys but I have a friend who has built me a thermin and looked inside a couple amps with me.( he even het rooded my boogie) All your paying for is is greed (or a name) you decide.
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Fuck you, you clueless asshole.

That is what you just said to me (and many of my friends), so I just thought I would say it back.

I assure you, greed is NOT part of the equation for any of us.

Or did you think I should live under a bridge in a cardboard box somewhere?




fuckingnovice said:
Point to point wiring and labor do not constitute such a steep price. Another 10 years of amp sims (if that) amp makers are going to pay dearly for a lack of vision. Yell all you want but tape is nearly dead and soon enough amps will be merely nostalgic in value as well. (times are a changing) I have read debates by great engineers many record direct and have gotten superb tones. Bob Ezrin, Kevin Kline to name a few, and this was before amp modeling. Even Andy Johns bitched about how tape adds it's own artifacts to the signal. That being said I think Just like The makers of the old consoles and reel to reel. If the amp makers of the world don't step up (or down) they have real trouble ahead.
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Man, you really are clueless.

This is exactly the kind of misunderstanding that leads to people buy shit like the Pod.

Yes, great tones can be had direct, but you can not get the sound of a great tube amp direct. And modelers don't even come close. They are exactly the kind of misaplication of technology that drives me to distraction. Sure, you can do great things with digital manipulation, but you can not recreate. Use them to create, that's fine, but recreations are always, always lacking. It's kind of like why every live recording ever sucks, because they are trying to recreate an experience. If you want to use some kind of modeling thing, use it for something NEW. They can do that, and when great engineers use them, that is what they do. But if they want the sound of a Twin, they use a Twin, end of story.

And yes, tape adds artifacts to the signal. THAT’S WHY WE LIKE IT!!!!!!!


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
nonovice said:
Even joe pass started using a d/i box.
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Yeah, because that has so much relevence, what with Joe Pass's GLORIOUS distortion tone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
i've gotten some really cool tones out of some amp modellers--i'll be the first to admit it......but they'll never replace the feel and vibe of the sound coming out of a 4x10.

there's something organic with a real guitar and a real amp that can't be replaced with a variax, pod and an optical cable.

maybe given enough time and technology, the sound will eventually "catch up" and the sound of a pod will be indistinguishable from a strat/deluxe reverb, tele/twin or a lespaul/marshall......but the feel won't be there. certainly not when you're the player. the guitar, amp and player share a symbiotic relationship--and recording direct with a modeller takes some of that relationship away.

let's look at it this way: i've played some great feeling and sounding digital keyboards/pianos, and it's fantastic being able to edit that one G# that you accidentally hit when you meant to hit an A by bringing up the midi score editor in your DAW (man, i wish i could do that for vocals! :p)......but it's nothing like sitting down at a baby grand in a nice sounding room and being enveloped in the magic that is wonderful sound.

a pod can create noise, but it will never move air.


cheers,
wade

PS--why are amp prices so high? b/c the market will bear it. if you want that p2p wired marshall bad enough, you'll pay what they're asking. you don't HAVE to pay for it b/c you don't HAVE to have it. why pay for a new Audi TT when a 78 pinto will get you from place to place just the same?

a LOT of it is that you're recouping the cost for the "western" craftsman that soldered the wires, dovetailed the joints on the cabinet, glued down the tolex, and by "western" i mean "american or european". i'd like to see ANYONE claim that a worker in china getting paid 12 cents a day takes as much pride in their work as someone like Light does in his....let alone claim that they'll do nearly as good a job. simply put--that master craftsmanship comes at a premium.

and in the spirit of capitalism, why shouldn't the master craftsman get as much as he possibly can for his work? turn the tables--would YOU rather be paid more or less for your day's worth of hard work? funny how it's not "greed" when it's YOU getting paid.....and i LIKE getting paid. who doesn't? :D
 
No need to get nasty man

I'm just stating an opinion. I never intended to offened. I'm was just giving examples that show great music can be made in a variety of ways. I don't understand why you took it so personally? Do you make these amps? If so then at least validate your frustration. I'm not trying to hurt anyone. What do you mean that I think you should live in a card board box? Counter rebuttle is fine, Post and prove me invaild, everyone will learn me included. I never called any one clueless or an asshole. If my statement about greed was offensive I apologize. Even in your tirad you agreed that good tones can be had with things other than a tube amp thats all I was saying. I never stated that the current technology sounded "the same". However I will stand by it and say it is only a matter of time before it does. Furthermore this forum is to share ideas. Some may benfit from getting a guitar tone going direct and may be happier with it. Like I said plenty of pros have done it and have had amazing results.
This thread was about amp price, and I feel given the results I've had with other gear they are a tad overpriced. Just an opinion, thats all.
 
exojjl said:
ummm......what are you thinking!! All you need is Kustom Solid state heads!!!
I picked up a 1968 head, it sounded great with a 15inch. Theyre said to be the best solid state amps out there, and many say they are better than half of the tube amps out there. Really, they are f**king cheap, and very reliable and underestimated. You'll find a head by itself between $100 and $150 no problemo. Always by the seperate pieces, because as soon as you see a head and cab together, theyre automaticly $700 and plus. f**k exspensive crappy marshall crap! I like cheap marshall amps though, underestimated as well/hell.
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And you've got yourself a nice big boutique door stop when that late '60s solid state electronics finally packs in.

Well, I swallow my words. Sounds like these amps have some serious rep on the Net, saying they are indeed great sounding amps, built like tanks.
 
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nonovice said:
I'm just stating an opinion. I never intended to offened. I'm was just giving examples that show great music can be made in a variety of ways. I don't understand why you took it so personally? Do you make these amps? If so then at least validate your frustration. I'm not trying to hurt anyone. What do you mean that I think you should live in a card board box? Counter rebuttle is fine, Post and prove me invaild, everyone will learn me included. I never called any one clueless or an asshole. If my statement about greed was offensive I apologize. Even in your tirad you agreed that good tones can be had with things other than a tube amp thats all I was saying. I never stated that the current technology sounded "the same". However I will stand by it and say it is only a matter of time before it does. Furthermore this forum is to share ideas. Some may benfit from getting a guitar tone going direct and may be happier with it. Like I said plenty of pros have done it and have had amazing results.
This thread was about amp price, and I feel given the results I've had with other gear they are a tad overpriced. Just an opinion, thats all.
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Offensive? Your the one who said that the cost of boutique instruments/amps was greed. THAT is fucking offensive. I work my ass off, and so do my amp builder friends. There is NO fucking greed to it. Tell me, how would YOU react if I called you greedy? Would you like it? Do you find it easy to pay all of YOUR bill every month? Or do you live pay check to pay check, like all of us in the custom/boutique instrument world?

Tell me, do you REALLY think that just because a friend of yours helped you do some simple mods to your amp that you know the FIRST FUCKING THING about what we do? You don't, I promise, and thinking that you do is ten thousand times more offensive than ANYTHING I could say.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
nonovice said:
If my statement about greed was offensive I apologize.
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Sorry, I didn't notice this first time around. Yes, it was deeply offensive. I build guitars, not amps, but I HAVE built amps (as a DIY thing), and it is a similar high skill profession. I get very upset when people start to imply that highly skilled craftsmen are being greedy when for charging an amount of money which amounts to at best just over a poverty wage.

I'm sorry for calling you an asshole.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
nonovice said:
The same poeple who are saying film looks better than hd. They think hd won't catch on for the same reasons.
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I honestly don't think I've ever heard someone say that "digital won't catch on". I've heard plenty of people say that "digital isn't there yet", particularly in the early days. But I can't recall anyone predicting that digital would never "catch on". You seem to be making stuff up to bolster your argument.
 
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