Amp Prices... I'm outraged!

[Easto]

Ok, I've calmed down but....

I look at a lot of boutique amp makers and $2500 for a head! lol.

BFD handwired. There are about 3,000 boutique amp makers who say the same thing! Quality of parts... ok, maybe $500 for the internals and $300 for a custom cabinet but not $2500.00!

 

[ahuimanu]

Psssst... guess what keeps these prices where they're at and keeps the boutiques sproutin' like wild flowers?

Internet Message Boards! These are the places where the G.A.S. truly forms.

 

[Light]

Ok, I've calmed down but....

I look at a lot of boutique amp makers and $2500 for a head! lol.

BFD handwired. There are about 3,000 boutique amp makers who say the same thing! Quality of parts... ok, maybe $500 for the internals and $300 for a custom cabinet but not $2500.00!

Nothing personal, but bite me.

Doing this shit right takes time. You are not paying for the parts on most things, you are paying for the LABOR involved.

If you want to build it yourself, go for it. But your time is valuable too, so any time you spend on this could be spent on something else (like practicing your guitar, or pulling your head out of your ass). It's up to you, but don't come anywhere I hang out and diminish the labor of serious craftsman.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ahuimanu]

Light has a point...

either pay for cheap Chinese/Indonesian/Mexican labor or pay a European/North American (the origin of most "boutique" joints) a fair/honest wage.

Your move...

More often than not, the boutique places are making a superior product, but G.A.S. is driving part of the boutique market too.

 

[Easto]

^^ Wow ^^

I Labor

 

[MrBoogie]

I know my opinion is worth diddly squat. But I agree with what the others are saying. In my short 35[almost] years on this earth I've learned a few lessons. One is that you almost always get what you pay for; especially when it comes to musical equipment.

I've seen a bit of what goes into making good quality equipment from a small company. My company does some work for a "boutique" amp company. At the same time, I haven't spent the >$1000 for the 18 watt head they make, not because I don't think it's worth it, but because it's out of my price range, and I am plenty happy with my little Mesa Boogie combo.

I can also remember a time when I asked "what's the big deal with tube amps?". I used to think a Marshall or Mesa wasn't any better than a Crate SS amp. Well, over the years, I've developed a better ear, I hope. I know I could never go back to playing on some crappy cheapo SS amp.

You should buy the best amp you can afford that sounds the best to you. Don't let anyone tell you what is best. You decide with your own ears. If there's someone you respect and trust, ask for their advice. If you think a $150 solid state peavey amp sounds great, buy it. After a while, if you keep practicing, you may realize it doesn't sound as good as you originally thought. Or you may actually grow to love it even more (I doubt it). Either way, what difference does it make?

Out of curiousity, what is your rig?

 

[therage!]

What I find interesting is the INCREDIBLE price increase Marshall has slapped on their amps. Take the DSL 401, the street price has gone from $700 to well over a $1000. I have a Reissue Blues Deville and you can get them for $825. It has four speakers compared to the one on the little Marshall. It's tweed with nice chrome. They both use PC Boards instead of hand wiring, so cheaper on labor cost.

It must be the Marshall name because I cannot see why this amp should be one penny more than the Fender. When you think about it $700 really looks like a good price for the amp.

 

[CoolCat]

material is critical imo. but friday discussing audio power amplifiers, we realized you can build two mono audio amps for ~20...good quality amplifier .01thd...but no fancy cabinet, no bells and whisltles and remotes...
and no middle management and corporate parties to pay for.

another reason Mesa Boogie can pull the money is they build great stuff, have great customer service form what i hear from a close friend, and PEOPLE LIKE THEIR STUFF!!

as far as Marshall, i came across a $100 head looks brand new, plays very nice, G100RCD sstate. and i'm amazed for $100.....

the way the factorys can pump sht out now...what will it be like in 5 years??
Used Marshalls for $25?? M-Audio Studio Monitors for $12 pair used??

and this is with "cheap labor"...the next manufacturing step is Robotics, already well underway. Then there will be less need for the cheap labor, it will be short-lived.
like India taking on the Phone Support stuff....the Digital Phone Robots are already taking those jobs ....

but there will still be some Leo Fender handbuiling something for quality reasons, for tone, for fun....

i'kll get off the soapbox now .....NEXT!!!

 

[DogFood]

If price were the only factor when all of us purchace amps we would be buying amps at Wal-Mart. Thank the diety of your choice that some person want to build these amps. For their brave/silly/down-right-foolhardy choice to go head to head with Marshall and the other big boys we will pay a premium. If we did not pay the premium they would no doubt have zero incentive to build boutique amps.

 

[Bassman Brad]

Easto, don't take it personal, man. You've obviously elicited some very powerful emotional reactions from people here. But the truth is, you are right! The prices of those "boutique amps" (not to mention some of the non-boutique ones) are, indeed, horrendously overpriced. The simple truth of the matter is that pretty much EVERYTHING that is made in America (or anything that has a “famous” brand name on it) is now grotesquely overpriced. Some people find this concept very threatening - on a very personal level - and simply refuse to face this simple fact. Instead, they will result to increasingly tortured reasoning to “justify” these outlandish prices.

There are just a handful of basic amp circuits (such as the old Fender Bassman) that get used by a wide variety of manufacturers, with only slight modifications between them. Yes, each of these modifications will change the tone of the amp a tiny bit. But the simple truth of the matter is that if you pick up a nice all-tube amp built in Russia or China, it is likely to sound a LOT like any other all-tube amp based upon the same circuitry, despite the fact that one of the amps may be priced at two or five or ten times the price of the other. There is no law that says that price is correlated to the quality of the tone that you get from a given amp (or any other musical instrument, for that matter).

Brad

 

[capnkid]

What store do you go to so you can test one of these boutique amps?

I see that marshall has re-issued the 18 watt head for $1849, and the matching cab for $899. Now this IS hand wired, but where, Indo, China, korea, where?

 

[Outlaws]

What I find interesting is the INCREDIBLE price increase Marshall has slapped on their amps. Take the DSL 401, the street price has gone from $700 to well over a $1000. I have a Reissue Blues Deville and you can get them for $825. It has four speakers compared to the one on the little Marshall. It's tweed with nice chrome. They both use PC Boards instead of hand wiring, so cheaper on labor cost.

It must be the Marshall name because I cannot see why this amp should be one penny more than the Fender. When you think about it $700 really looks like a good price for the amp.

Umm....you can't just import stuff from England for free ya know. There are laws and taxes involved there. Also, fender doesn't use 'chrome'. I have plastic items that look chrome, but I wouldn't dare call it chrome. Second, a lot of Marshalls come with Celestion speakers compared to 'special desgin' or some other BS....Either way, a lot of Fenders use Eminence. Not that they are bad, but its apple and oranges. If both came with the same ones it would be something to note, but they don't. Not to mention that Fenders are almost all made in Mexico, and the last time I checked, Marshall still said Made in England....that could have changed, and it wouldn't suprise me, but if it hasn't (and I am NOT talking about the MG or ATV series), I bet English workers get paid better than Mexicans.

 

[NL5]

Now this IS hand wired, but where, Indo, China, korea, where?

Ummmmm, England! I bet those cherrio MF's get paid pretty darn good as well..........

edit - dammit - outlaws beat me to the punch. I do have a 1974X that clearly says MADE IN ENGLAND (by an English MF)

 

[Outlaws]

What store do you go to so you can test one of these boutique amps?

I see that marshall has re-issued the 18 watt head for $1849, and the matching cab for $899. Now this IS hand wired, but where, Indo, China, korea, where?

I realize this is a lot of money for a very simplistic designed amp, but these amps will not sell as well as the JCM or the entry level stuff. That means they will be limited production items. There might be a 10,000 (i made that number up) of them, but its still alot more expensive per item to make 10,000 than it is to make 100,000.

 

[Light]

[rant]

And to whoever left the little red mark without their name, bite me twice.

Boutique building of just about anything - whether it be guitars, amps, or pogo sticks - is a really fucking tough way to make a living. Sure, the prices may seem high, but to do it right you have overhead that is over half the cost of the amp, and you can't make that many a year if you are going to do them right. The people who buy this stuff are, in general, extremely well informed, have very strong opinions (only some of which are based on reality, even fewer of which are based on experience), and have expectations which are somewhere between nearly impossible and completely impossible to meet.

Grit Laskin and Linda Manzer made up a tee shirt a few years back with a bunch of questions and answers that luthiers typically get. Things like, Q: "How long have you been doing that?" A: "Long enough to develop dust allergies." The one which I like the most, however, is Q: "How many do you make a year?" A: "One more than all my bills." That is about right for most of us. You can complain about our prices all you want, but if we don't charge what we are charging (in reality, if we don't charge quite a bit more than most of us are charging); we go out of business, end of story.

If you can't afford it, that's fine. I do understand that what I do is very expensive, and I do not get offended or hurt when someone can't afford it. But don't for a second imply that I shouldn't charge what I get. I know how much work goes into my guitars, I know what I have to pay for parts and materials, and I know what I get paid for them. I'm not full of myself. I'm not full of much of anything. Most days, I'm fucking starving.

I am incredibly lucky to get to do what I do for a living. I do understand that. I work at a job I love, creating tools which are used to create my absolute favorite thing in the world - music. I do understand how lucky I am, truly. But don't expect me to be happy when people start to denigrate what I do for a living with shit like, "What the hell, I can buy a guitar a Wal-Mart for 50 bucks, man!" Fine. Go buy your POS and get out of my store and let me work. I love some of my customers. Some of them are very close friends. But there are some customers, on some days, that make me agree with Kevin Smith. "This job would be great if it weren't for the fucking customers!"

[/rant]



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[noisedude]

And then there's the Marshall Modefour, where you pay well over £1000 for an unreliable tranny amp.

Buy wisely - use your ears AND your brain ... not anyone else's!

 

[capnkid]

[rant]

And to whoever left the little red mark without their name, bite me twice.

Boutique building of just about anything - whether it be guitars, amps, or pogo sticks - is a really fucking tough way to make a living. Sure, the prices may seem high, but to do it right you have overhead that is over half the cost of the amp, and you can't make that many a year if you are going to do them right. The people who buy this stuff are, in general, extremely well informed, have very strong opinions (only some of which are based on reality, even fewer of which are based on experience), and have expectations which are somewhere between nearly impossible and completely impossible to meet.

Grit Laskin and Linda Manzer made up a tee shirt a few years back with a bunch of questions and answers that luthiers typically get. Things like, Q: "How long have you been doing that?" A: "Long enough to develop dust allergies." The one which I like the most, however, is Q: "How many do you make a year?" A: "One more than all my bills." That is about right for most of us. You can complain about our prices all you want, but if we don't charge what we are charging (in reality, if we don't charge quite a bit more than most of us are charging); we go out of business, end of story.

If you can't afford it, that's fine. I do understand that what I do is very expensive, and I do not get offended or hurt when someone can't afford it. But don't for a second imply that I shouldn't charge what I get. I know how much work goes into my guitars, I know what I have to pay for parts and materials, and I know what I get paid for them. I'm not full of myself. I'm not full of much of anything. Most days, I'm fucking starving.

I am incredibly lucky to get to do what I do for a living. I do understand that. I work at a job I love, creating tools which are used to create my absolute favorite thing in the world - music. I do understand how lucky I am, truly. But don't expect me to be happy when people start to denigrate what I do for a living with shit like, "What the hell, I can buy a guitar a Wal-Mart for 50 bucks, man!" Fine. Go buy your POS and get out of my store and let me work. I love some of my customers. Some of them are very close friends. But there are some customers, on some days, that make me agree with Kevin Smith. "This job would be great if it weren't for the fucking customers!"

[/rant]



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

What is your website, I'd like to see your stuff. I still would like to know where the new Marshall plexi's are made.

oh and belive me My hat is off to you if you know how the inner workings of an amp work! If you can figure out what tranny's go with what tubes and caps and resitors to get a certain wattage and special sound. I have tried a couple of amps, I still have a 5 watter that has been sitting for a year because I am lost on it and is frustrating. I also have an 18 watt combo that has somthing keeping it from powering up.
Anyway, If a person can build the amp and know how it functions and build the cab and all to fit together, it is worth the money. Just as long as there is a service warrenty, or the person can call the boutique builder when somthing goes down.

 

[therage!]

Umm....you can't just import stuff from England for free ya know. There are laws and taxes involved there. Also, fender doesn't use 'chrome'. I have plastic items that look chrome, but I wouldn't dare call it chrome. Second, a lot of Marshalls come with Celestion speakers compared to 'special desgin' or some other BS....Either way, a lot of Fenders use Eminence. Not that they are bad, but its apple and oranges. If both came with the same ones it would be something to note, but they don't. Not to mention that Fenders are almost all made in Mexico, and the last time I checked, Marshall still said Made in England....that could have changed, and it wouldn't suprise me, but if it hasn't (and I am NOT talking about the MG or ATV series), I bet English workers get paid better than Mexicans.

I've got to check but I do not believe the 401 is made in England.

My Deville is most certainly chrome, it is not plastic. Do your research.


A point I'm trying to make is the Marshall is a mass produced amp, same as the Fender. At least to "me" a 401 is nowhere near being worth what they are getting for that amp. The market will bear it because of the Marshall name.

 

[Outlaws]

I've got to check but I do not believe the 401 is made in England.

My Deville is most certainly chrome, it is not plastic. Do your research.


A point I'm trying to make is the Marshall is a mass produced amp, same as the Fender. At least to "me" a 401 is nowhere near being worth what they are getting for that amp. The market will bear it because of the Marshall name.

I never said -it- was plastic, I just said its probably not real chrome. Even if it was, its not like its a serious expense. Besides, there are different levels in quality even within chrome.

Also, I owned a Blues Deluxe, a Blues Jr, and a ProJunior, so I know it is metal.

Now if some company wants to start using stainless steel, that would be awsome.

 

[therage!]

Now if some company wants to start using stainless steel, that would be awsome.

Now there's an idea for the Boutique amp guys.