Amp Modelling question.....

[gtrman_66]

i got the chance to play an awesome 70's hiwatt (dr103) on a couple of occasions. what are your impressions of the sound city? i hear they are really cool amps.

I really like the sound of that Sound City, and it fits Matt's playing like a glove. The only thing is, it can be a real maintenence pig, it gave us some fits trying to keep it running through all the tracking we did. He had another "identical" Sound City in the studio with us that was solid as a rock and never broke down, but it just didn't sound as good as the finicky one.

 

[travelin travis]

I really like the sound of that Sound City, and it fits Matt's playing like a glove. The only thing is, it can be a real maintenence pig, it gave us some fits trying to keep it running through all the tracking we did. He had another "identical" Sound City in the studio with us that was solid as a rock and never broke down, but it just didn't sound as good as the finicky one.

ain't that the way it goes?





























































































































kind of like a woman ain't it?

 

[gtrman_66]

ain't that the way it goes?



kind of like a woman ain't it?

That's the truth. If I could name one good reason to envy the amp modeler, it would be for the fact that old tube amps can leave you high and dry

If they really want to make a super realistic simulation, they could program amp models that blow up in the middle of a gig

I have to say though, about my little Marshall Artist, the damn thing is a rock. I have pounded its ass for about 3 solid years now and knock wood, it has never let me down once.

 

[travelin travis]

i had a modeling amp that blew smooth up twice! the big boom and blue flash scared the shit out of me both times. i was thinking they went a little over board with the modeling.

i'm not a big fan of modelers but i have to say the line6 duoverb can flat rock on the jtm and plexi settings.

if you get the chance some time, i'd like to hear a clip of that marshall on it's own not close miced. i don't think i've ever heard one and am curious about how it sounds compared to other marshalls.

 

[gtrman_66]

.

if you get the chance some time, i'd like to hear a clip of that marshall on it's own not close miced. i don't think i've ever heard one and am curious about how it sounds compared to other marshalls.

I think I have just the thing at home, I did some room miked stuff with my band a couple weeks ago with just a couple LDCs in front of the stage. I was playing like ass because I hadn't been out to gig in over a month, but I'll see if there is something on there and post it when I get back Monday.

It's a smooth little beast, 2 el-34s and 30w going through a 4x10 celestion loaded cab

 

[travelin travis]

sounds perfect man. looking forward to hearing it.

 

[apl]

I like your stuff APL!! SOunds good to me !!!

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[apl]

What mod do you use?

Most of it is with the lowly $80 Digitech RP-50. There's also some Line 6 Spider II 15. I traded that for Spider II 112 but then got rid of it. Now I've got a POD XT Live. The only thing I've done with it is the blues rumble...

Sorry it took so long...

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=5047

I got rid of my Spider II 112 and got a Pod XT Live.

Anyway, there's two rhythm tracks with the Sorrento, and then the solos alternate between the faux strat and the Carvin with various amp models.

My playing's really bad, and my excuse is that I was focusing on the tones.

I don't know what's causing all that hum to show up around 2:10. Around 1:20 I'm hammering on the 24th fret.

 

[apl]

Oh, the RP-50 tones took a lot of work.

 

[metalhead28]

True, I feel like I can probably comment on this from pretty much every side. I own anp amp modeler, a modeling amp, a solid state amp and a couple tube amps.

First thing to get straight: There is a big difference in what an amp communicates to you when you're standing in the room with it, or on stage with it, and what you capture from it in a recording.
I can dial in a very nice lead guitar sound on my V-Amp pro (modeler) and capture what I feel is a pretty good recording. However, standing in the room and playing that thing....it is just no comparison to standing in the room with my 5150 with a nice lead sound dialed in. That thing is crystal clear, super fat, extremely responsive to my every articulation, it has more character to the sound, like a big juicy, musical explosion. It is part of my instrument, it speaks. It gives my fingers the power, it's just hard to explain.... When I record it, it often doesn't end up translating that much better than my V-Amp, because the V-amp seems to approximate what the recorded amp sounds like rather than the amp in the room. It's much harder to make a call based on recordings alone. You're also depending on how well someone actually captured all of that mojo from their tube amp...maybe they didn't do the best recording or they don't have the ideal gear to put the sound across as it should be. Too many variables.
Now my modeling amp has slightly different characteristics. It's a Vox AD50VT. It's got similar qualities to my V-Amp pro in terms of what sort of general tones it is capable of. You get an immediately more satisfying response from it simply because it's a real amplifier and not a modeler pumping through my monitor speakers. It's actually not too hard to convince myself that it sounds nearly as good as some real amplifiers at lower volumes, but at low volumes real amplifiers don't do what they do best. If you crank that thing up, there is just no escaping the digital edge that it has, there's no escaping the slight wash that comes over the sound, there's no juicy fatness swirling around the room. You might fake out most of the people who listen to you, but you won't fake out yourself if you're used to a tube amp. I bought that amp so I could have a host of different sounds that would fit in the trunk of my car to go out and jam with friends. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It does indeed sound pretty damn good. I've found that it doesn't matter to other listeners nearly as much as it does to the player, and not nearly as much to the player who hasn't gotten used to something better.
Like Travis said, some players dont like what a tube amp reveals about their playing. I find that it makes my playing sound much better and I'm much more comfortable. Some people need the security blanket of a modeler or some flat and smeared sounding amp. I've had people come in to record with me who want to use my gear, they want me to dial it in. I dial in a lead sound for them which I think is expressive and beautiful and they freak out. They wonder how anybody plays a ripping lead with that tone. They need to plug into a lifeless washed out modeler or something so they don't feel threatened by the power and clarity of the tube amp. I don't know if that makes any sense but I think it was the same thing Travis was refering to.
Whether any of this means anything to you hinges on a few different things. I enjoy playing so much that I can deal with plugging into my V-amp most of the time when I pick up my guitar. It's easy, it sounds acceptable, and it doesn't have to be roaring loud. When I get a chance to plug into my 5150 and crank it up it's like sex. It's like a zen sort of experience where I feel that I'm reaching my full potential. I will not deny the beauty of that, but to totally denounce modelers is just being stuffy. They have alot of usefullness and if you truly love to play, the little bit of expressiveness that you lose is not going to stop you..you deal with it. Will they ever replace tube amps? I sincerely don't think so. If you're going for the pinnacle, there's only one way. Most people using modelers know they're not at the pinnacle and they don't care. Nothing wrong with that, if the sound inspires you.

Now when it comes to recording heavy metal rhythm guitar....oh nevermind, I'm not getting into that again.

 

[apl]

First thing to get straight: There is a big difference in what an amp communicates to you when you're standing in the room with it, or on stage with it, and what you capture from it in a recording.

You wrote about it very well. Thanks.

Now when it comes to recording heavy metal rhythm guitar....oh nevermind, I'm not getting into that again.

Please, go ahead...

 

[kojdogg]

Metalhead28- great post man-- found it really helpful.

 

[metalhead28]

Please, go ahead...

Well, I'm not sure everybody here is ready for that sort of a tirade .
But here goes nothing.

While discussing the vibe of tube amps in my first post, I was definitely considering "lead" guitar pretty exclusively. That's where the musicality of the amp itself is most revealed in my opinion. That's where the subtle issues of tone and articulation really rear their ugly head. That's where tube amps get really sexy. In my opinion it's a whole different can of worms when you're talking about heavy rhythm guitar. Some of the same things are true, but alot of different things come into play as well.
With the proliferation of lower cost solid state amps, digital amps and modelers in recent years, as well as a trend for over-processed unrealistic tones, people have become acustomed to a whole different kind of heavy guitar tone. I deal with people all the time who have totally unrealistic expectations of what an amp should sound like. I also deal with people who try out a tube amp for heavy rhythm and are disgusted by it. A modeler or a solid state amp with an abundance of shrill, grating gain is what they expect to hear.
When it comes to heavy guitar sounds, you have a declining number of listeners who "get it" combined with a growing number of guitarists who "don't get it" so you almost end up creating a new trend or a new definition of a good guitar sound. The thing is, alot of those same people are able to acknowledge when somebody reeally kicks their ass with a guitar sound, but if you told them what it took to get there they would cringe and run away. You ever heard a live band where the guitar was just roaring at you with these huge teeth and this brutish howl? That guy gets it. The guy who doesn't get it hits a pretty sweet sounding chord before the band starts playing, and after the song starts you can't hear his sorry ass anymore.

Give me a modeler that will recreate the chunk, the clarity and the girth of a "money" tube amp with the gain rolled to about 12 o clock. It's not happening. When you dime the gain on a tube amp, sure, you get saturation if it's a high gain head..but the saturation is not the fundamental element of the sound. You get the sound when the gain is up high enough to make those chords growl but not enough to flatten them out. That is a quality exclusive to tube amps in my opinion. You can argue about it till you're blue in the face but it won't change my mind. You won't change the mind of just about any tube amp user so if you want to argue about it you should get your head out of your ass and try and pick up on the trend there.

Pushing a quality amp into the danger zone is like taking something that you know works and trying to coax even more out of it. You've got something to build from. You've got to get a handle on what elements of the sound make it good, or make it big. When you go to the fringes trying to get an unholy amount of gain you've got to keep sight of the part that sounded so good. I can dial my amp into that sweet spot with no problem. Trying to dial my VOX or V-Amp into that territory is a waste of time. You sweep it through the gain range and you never hear that fat growl in any form. It's just not there. Sure, when you crank the gain you end up with some of those similar saturation characteristics at the top of the range, but you blew right past the part where you had any balls in the sound to begin with. People who think that the modeler cuts the mustard for heavy guitar sounds gotta be blowing right past that part of the sound too. Or else they are just another one of those people who have redefined what sounds good in a guitar sound in their own opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. I got no problem with people who love their modelers, god knows I use mine when I need to. But the magic of a tube amp is definitely real. If you can't pick up on it you just missed the boat or something.
Of course you've got plenty of people who disagree with me on what elements of a guitar sound make it awesome. People disagree on what makes a guitar sound big. Perhaps it's too bad for me that I have to be one of those people who cannot be satisfied with less than a bitchin tube amp, I wish I could get by cheaper.

Oh well...that's enough for now.

 

[apl]

Thanks a heap.

 

[HangDawg]

Well, I'm not sure everybody here is ready for that sort of a tirade .
But here goes nothing.

While discussing the vibe of tube amps in my first post, I was definitely considering "lead" guitar pretty exclusively. That's where the musicality of the amp itself is most revealed in my opinion. That's where the subtle issues of tone and articulation really rear their ugly head. That's where tube amps get really sexy. In my opinion it's a whole different can of worms when you're talking about heavy rhythm guitar. Some of the same things are true, but alot of different things come into play as well.
With the proliferation of lower cost solid state amps, digital amps and modelers in recent years, as well as a trend for over-processed unrealistic tones, people have become acustomed to a whole different kind of heavy guitar tone. I deal with people all the time who have totally unrealistic expectations of what an amp should sound like. I also deal with people who try out a tube amp for heavy rhythm and are disgusted by it. A modeler or a solid state amp with an abundance of shrill, grating gain is what they expect to hear.
When it comes to heavy guitar sounds, you have a declining number of listeners who "get it" combined with a growing number of guitarists who "don't get it" so you almost end up creating a new trend or a new definition of a good guitar sound. The thing is, alot of those same people are able to acknowledge when somebody reeally kicks their ass with a guitar sound, but if you told them what it took to get there they would cringe and run away. You ever heard a live band where the guitar was just roaring at you with these huge teeth and this brutish howl? That guy gets it. The guy who doesn't get it hits a pretty sweet sounding chord before the band starts playing, and after the song starts you can't hear his sorry ass anymore.

Give me a modeler that will recreate the chunk, the clarity and the girth of a "money" tube amp with the gain rolled to about 12 o clock. It's not happening. When you dime the gain on a tube amp, sure, you get saturation if it's a high gain head..but the saturation is not the fundamental element of the sound. You get the sound when the gain is up high enough to make those chords growl but not enough to flatten them out. That is a quality exclusive to tube amps in my opinion. You can argue about it till you're blue in the face but it won't change my mind. You won't change the mind of just about any tube amp user so if you want to argue about it you should get your head out of your ass and try and pick up on the trend there.

Pushing a quality amp into the danger zone is like taking something that you know works and trying to coax even more out of it. You've got something to build from. You've got to get a handle on what elements of the sound make it good, or make it big. When you go to the fringes trying to get an unholy amount of gain you've got to keep sight of the part that sounded so good. I can dial my amp into that sweet spot with no problem. Trying to dial my VOX or V-Amp into that territory is a waste of time. You sweep it through the gain range and you never hear that fat growl in any form. It's just not there. Sure, when you crank the gain you end up with some of those similar saturation characteristics at the top of the range, but you blew right past the part where you had any balls in the sound to begin with. People who think that the modeler cuts the mustard for heavy guitar sounds gotta be blowing right past that part of the sound too. Or else they are just another one of those people who have redefined what sounds good in a guitar sound in their own opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. I got no problem with people who love their modelers, god knows I use mine when I need to. But the magic of a tube amp is definitely real. If you can't pick up on it you just missed the boat or something.
Of course you've got plenty of people who disagree with me on what elements of a guitar sound make it awesome. People disagree on what makes a guitar sound big. Perhaps it's too bad for me that I have to be one of those people who cannot be satisfied with less than a bitchin tube amp, I wish I could get by cheaper.

Oh well...that's enough for now.

That's it! That's fucking it! I have heard people try to explain it before. I've tried. But this is it. It's exactly what happens. Fuckn ehhhh! There you have it, either you get it or you don't.

 

[gvarko]

Well, I'm not sure everybody here is ready for that sort of a tirade .
But here goes nothing.

While discussing the vibe of tube amps in my first post, I was definitely considering "lead" guitar pretty exclusively. That's where the musicality of the amp itself is most revealed in my opinion. That's where the subtle issues of tone and articulation really rear their ugly head. That's where tube amps get really sexy. In my opinion it's a whole different can of worms when you're talking about heavy rhythm guitar. Some of the same things are true, but alot of different things come into play as well.
With the proliferation of lower cost solid state amps, digital amps and modelers in recent years, as well as a trend for over-processed unrealistic tones, people have become acustomed to a whole different kind of heavy guitar tone. I deal with people all the time who have totally unrealistic expectations of what an amp should sound like. I also deal with people who try out a tube amp for heavy rhythm and are disgusted by it. A modeler or a solid state amp with an abundance of shrill, grating gain is what they expect to hear.
When it comes to heavy guitar sounds, you have a declining number of listeners who "get it" combined with a growing number of guitarists who "don't get it" so you almost end up creating a new trend or a new definition of a good guitar sound. The thing is, alot of those same people are able to acknowledge when somebody reeally kicks their ass with a guitar sound, but if you told them what it took to get there they would cringe and run away. You ever heard a live band where the guitar was just roaring at you with these huge teeth and this brutish howl? That guy gets it. The guy who doesn't get it hits a pretty sweet sounding chord before the band starts playing, and after the song starts you can't hear his sorry ass anymore.

Give me a modeler that will recreate the chunk, the clarity and the girth of a "money" tube amp with the gain rolled to about 12 o clock. It's not happening. When you dime the gain on a tube amp, sure, you get saturation if it's a high gain head..but the saturation is not the fundamental element of the sound. You get the sound when the gain is up high enough to make those chords growl but not enough to flatten them out. That is a quality exclusive to tube amps in my opinion. You can argue about it till you're blue in the face but it won't change my mind. You won't change the mind of just about any tube amp user so if you want to argue about it you should get your head out of your ass and try and pick up on the trend there.

Pushing a quality amp into the danger zone is like taking something that you know works and trying to coax even more out of it. You've got something to build from. You've got to get a handle on what elements of the sound make it good, or make it big. When you go to the fringes trying to get an unholy amount of gain you've got to keep sight of the part that sounded so good. I can dial my amp into that sweet spot with no problem. Trying to dial my VOX or V-Amp into that territory is a waste of time. You sweep it through the gain range and you never hear that fat growl in any form. It's just not there. Sure, when you crank the gain you end up with some of those similar saturation characteristics at the top of the range, but you blew right past the part where you had any balls in the sound to begin with. People who think that the modeler cuts the mustard for heavy guitar sounds gotta be blowing right past that part of the sound too. Or else they are just another one of those people who have redefined what sounds good in a guitar sound in their own opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. I got no problem with people who love their modelers, god knows I use mine when I need to. But the magic of a tube amp is definitely real. If you can't pick up on it you just missed the boat or something.
Of course you've got plenty of people who disagree with me on what elements of a guitar sound make it awesome. People disagree on what makes a guitar sound big. Perhaps it's too bad for me that I have to be one of those people who cannot be satisfied with less than a bitchin tube amp, I wish I could get by cheaper.

Oh well...that's enough for now.

This should be archived or sticky noted or something so every time a "modeling" debate starts we can quick post this excellent response. Nice job metalhead!!

 

[amra]

I don't know man.
On the one hand, I agree that when it comes to heavy, chunky rythm, a 1/2 or full stack tube amp is pretty much unbeatable when it comes to playing live. Everything you said about that is true.

But on the other hand, modelers have impressed me to the point where I just don't feel like a full-on, all tube 1/2 stack is the only way to get a nice heavy sound any more - especially when it comes to recording. To think otherwise is to close your mind to technology, and if you are going to do that, you might as well take a stand against DAW's and ADAT and all the rest as well. Once upon a time, ADAT recorders were waaay substandard to recording with tape. Now that is not the case. Once upon a time, amp modelers were WAAAY substandard to real amps. Maybe they are not ready for prime time yet, but sooner or later they will be. Just like ADAT eventually was, and DAWs as well.

I promise that if you took your V-AMP pro, hooked it up to a low-tuned guitar with 11-53's on it, ran it through a couple hundred watt power amp, and then a 4x12 cab with full range speakers (like KB amps use) you would get as brutal and heavy a sound as you could want, and the audience would never know the difference.

Not trying to change your mind metalhead, but this is for others out there -you can get heavy recorded sounds with modelers, heavier than some people get with "real" amps. It's all a matter of perspective and of course, knowing your gear and recording technique.

Here are a couple tracks with V-AMP guitars (some of you have already heard them..)

"Fantasy Fuel"

"Flesh Wound"

 

[HangDawg]

I promise that if you took your V-AMP pro, hooked it up to a low-tuned guitar with 11-53's on it, ran it through a couple hundred watt power amp, and then a 4x12 cab with full range speakers (like KB amps use) you would get as brutal and heavy a sound as you could want, and the audience would never know the difference.

I have to completely disagree. Every time I've seen people use this shit live it just falls appart. Just like metalhead28 said, they'll hit a chord by themselves and it's sort of passable. As soon as the whole band kicks in, bye bye guitar. Sorry, I've just seen it happen. Every fucking time.

 

[amra]

Well I've seen it work (or at least a situation close to that), and work well.
You got to know your gear, and you got to understand where the power in your sound comes from.

 

[HangDawg]

Well I've seen it work (or at least a situation close to that), and work well.
You got to know your gear, and you got to understand where the power in your sound comes from.

Well, maybe dude got lucky. It's rare. And I guarantee they screwed around for months or longer trying to get something decent.