Advice needed on drum and bass amp mics

[Kerrie]

Hello all,

I need to order some mics soon that will be used in an outdoor venue. I'm on a bit a budget here but want to get mics that aren't complete garbage.

I need to mic a bass cabinet (or at least have the option to) as well as a 4 mic setup to mic a kit (kick/snare/2 overheads).

I was thinking about one of these for the bass cabinet:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATM250/

Is there something better that I'm not aware of in that same price range?

I also planned on getting another one for the kick drum unless there is something better...? Again, the sub 200 range is what I'm looking at for the kick drum and bass amp mics.

I did look at one of these for either the bass amp and/or the kick drum, but not sure if there's that much of a difference between the mics for an extra $20 each? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/D6/

I've got a spare 57 I planned on using for the snare/hats.

Overheads are my big concern... SD or LD? What can I get away with? Again, we're talking a live outdoor venue... many different types of music. I really shouldn't spend more than $300-$350 for the pair if I can get by without having too. But I don't want the sound to totally suffer. I know I'll get a lot of SM81/Octavia/C1000/NT4/etc. recommendations but they all seem to be definitely out of my price range for a pair.

Any suggestions?

Thanks a million guys!
Kerrie

 

[Weasel9992]

For bass cab and/or kick I'd go with this: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/D6/

I also use the AKG D112 routinely for both jobs.

The 57 will work great for snare/HH.

I'm a fan of LDC's on OH...or ribbon mics. The Cascade Fat Heads sound amazing on drum OH. If not those then I use a couple of C12 clones.

Frank

 

[Kerrie]

Thanks for the reply!

I'll go with the audix then for the kick and/or bass cabinet.

As far as overheads... have never heard of the fatheads or read much about them. And I don't know what a C2 clone is?

I've had people tell me I should be using SDC's on live overheads for the kit and then others swear by LDC's. Not sure what to think.

If I ended up going with a LDC as you recommended, could I get away with a pair of Studio Projects B1's? http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-STU-B1V2-LIST

Or if I went with SDC, how about something like a pair of MXL 604s? http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MAS-MXL604-LIST

In any event, I could go as high as $300-350 for the overheads if I had to. Just not really any higher. Any specific models you'd recommend in that price range or lower?

 

[Kerrie]

One additional comment...

I've been searching these forums like crazy reading about different overhead suggestions. But one thing I'm noticing is everyone seems to be talking mostly about use in studio recording situations.

If the overheads I'm looking for would be used mostly outdoors in a live sound environment, would that change things in terms of recommendations?

And again, it's a 4 mic configuration... looks like a Audix D6 on the kick, 57 on the snare, and just the overheads. Used for many different genre bands (pretty much everything but metal).

Thanks again!

 

[darrin_h2000]

I was under the impression that the D6 was a rebadged ATM-25.

Im using the AT pro25 and it does the job fine...but direct in for bass guitar is the best way to do that.

 

[WhiteStrat]

...but direct in for bass guitar is the best way to do that.

Really? Is there but one best way? I think this is quite subjective...

 

[Kerrie]

Thanks for the additional info... but could one of you guru's help me with the LDC vs. SDC for outdoor live venues issue I have? I'm pulling my hair out here. The more threads I search and read, the less I'm sure!

 

[darrin_h2000]

Really? Is there but one best way? I think this is quite subjective...

About 100% of the time it has been the best way here...and for a few reasons.

...You get total Isolation for better control over it during mixdown...(Ill track Drums, Bass, and Rythem guitar all at once to get a live groove...guitar tracked in an isolation cabinet).

...That huge Bass amp isnt taking up space in the tracking room.

...The Models are good ones and there are many different options.

 

[WhiteStrat]

About 100% of the time it has been the best way here...and for a few reasons.

...You get total Isolation for better control over it during mixdown...(Ill track Drums, Bass, and Rythem guitar all at once to get a live groove...guitar tracked in an isolation cabinet).

...That huge Bass amp isnt taking up space in the tracking room.

...The Models are good ones and there are many different options.

Well then, you need to tell everyone who also mics a bass cab that they can stop now.

Seriously, bass does better than most instruments DI'd. That's widely known. But some of the best bass tracks are mic'd or a combination of DI and mic'd.

OP--sorry for hijacking your thread.

 

[Weasel9992]

One additional comment...

I've been searching these forums like crazy reading about different overhead suggestions. But one thing I'm noticing is everyone seems to be talking mostly about use in studio recording situations.

If the overheads I'm looking for would be used mostly outdoors in a live sound environment, would that change things in terms of recommendations?

And again, it's a 4 mic configuration... looks like a Audix D6 on the kick, 57 on the snare, and just the overheads. Used for many different genre bands (pretty much everything but metal).

Well, the forum is called "Home Recording".

It wouldn't really make any difference to me. You can always use windscreens if you're getting too much rumble.

Frank

 

[darrin_h2000]

Well then, you need to tell everyone who also mics a bass cab that they can stop now.

Seriously, bass does better than most instruments DI'd. That's widely known. But some of the best bass tracks are mic'd or a combination of DI and mic'd.

OP--sorry for hijacking your thread.

Id say that the best ones are Geddy Lee's...he goes straight to PA live too...you never see a bass amp at a Rush show.

Yeah the bass amp also causes resonence if you have that problem anywhere in your home studio...that would exploit that too.

 

[hairylarry]

Recording outside

Kerrie,

I do a lot of recording outside as well as work in my home studio. They are two different worlds.

Condensers pick up wind noise worse than cardiod dynamics. Cardiod dynamics pick up wind noise worse than omni dynamics. My best option on windy days is omnis with a wind screen. I use EV 635, Shure SM61, and my secret weapon mic, Realistic 1070b (or c or d). These are all great mics and they are also inexpensive.

Wind noise is less of a problem with kick drum if you can put the mic into the drum. So you need a good short stand with a boom. I love my ATM 25 for indoor and outdoor work. Not only is it great on kick but it's a good general purpose mic for low frequency instruments.

If you can take your bass direct you won't get any wind noise. An inexpensive mic that's good for bass is the Peavey 520i or 520tn.

Everyone uses Shure SM57 for guitar cabinets and snare. In the studio or live. Another option for cabinets is the EV 635 mentioned above. Again these are very good inexpensive options.

For drum overheads small diaphragm condenser mics are usually used in the studio. This is not so good outside because of the wind noise. I'm going to make a few suggestions and leave this question open to someone with more experience than me. I would try a dynamic omni with an extended frequency response. Feedback shouldn't be a problem because you're not going to run your overheads in the monitors. You can also try just one overhead since most PAs are mono anyway. I'll suggest the EV RE55 (which I don't own), the EV PL9 (which is less expensive than the RE55 but just as hard to find), or the Realistic 1070 b, c, or d (which are dirt cheap and ubiquitous).

I am calling for suggestions on the overheads. I am sure someone used to working with bigger PA setups than me has to use them. I rarely do.

On drums outside sometimes I put my ATM 25 in front of the kick and it picks up the whole kit. I learned this trick miking kick drums with two drum heads and no hole. I could set levels and then adjust the drum sound with EQ.

In summary, for outside recording I avoid condenser mics and I'm much more likely to grab an omni than I would in a wind free environment.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[Kerrie]

Thank you so much for your insight Larry! It's much appreciated.

 

[Weasel9992]

I think Larry raises some good points that deserve some experimentation for sure. I can say that over the nearly 25 years I've been doing this, condensers are the choice for OH's (even outside) 95% of the time. I've used everything from cheapie SDC's to C414'a (very common) to U87's and beyond, all with varying degrees of success based on the specific environment.

Wind noise is going to be a problem if you're working in an entirely open space (which is not very common), and you're just going to have to minimize it to the extent that it's possible. Positioning can help somewhat, though you may be compromising the drum sound at the same time. Wind screens can work very well, but you're losing some of the top end mic response...maybe not a great thing for your cymbal sound.

I've never used a pair of dynamics as OH's, but now I'm curious. My SM7 has pretty decent high mid/high frequency presence with the windscreen off...I wonder how a pair of those would sound?

Frnak

 

[Richard Monroe]

First of all, you are on a tight budget, so I would recommend pricing at 8th street over Sweetwater. Sweetwater has great customer service and very knowledgable staff, but you pay a premium for that on certain brands. For the $199 you want to pay at Sweetwater for Audix D6, you can get the D112 at 8th Street:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=1053&Category=Microphones

Oddly enough 8th Street's price on the Audix D6 is identical ($199), but for the D112, Sweetwater wants $250. For your application, especially the bass cab, I prefer the D112.
I should say that I like the D6 on kick just fine, and you might consider one of each, so you have 2 different colors of crayon. I've never used the AT25, but it gets a lot of props on this board as a kick mic. Unfortunately, it appears to be discontinued, and I don't even see them on ebay.

I agree that going DI on the bass is simpler, but there is no problem with mic'ing a cab also, and using either or both, depending on the sound and the wind.

Regarding the overheads, I've used dynamics and condensers outdoors, and it really depends on how bad the wind is. 85% of the time, I prefer condensers, but when the wind is really bad (the other 15%), I go with dynamics with big foam wind screens. For that, I like AKG D770 or SM58's. It's one of the few cases where I will use the 58 by preference over the SM57, because of the ball with the wind screen. If you go with condensers, I think the B-1's or the MXL 604's are both perfectly good for that application, and you *will* want wind screens. I'd say keep a pair of dynamics with wind screens handy in case the wind gets out of control. In fact, I might put condensers and dynamics up on 2 stands with stereo bars (one of each on each stand), so I could make the switch at a touch of a button, if you have the channels to spare. Although ribbons can be fine as overheads, if the wind is severe enough that I have to put up dynamics, the last thing I want up is a ribbon. At a certain point, it's like blowing into a ribbon mic, something you don't want to do.

 

[Weasel9992]

At a friend's suggestion I just bought a set of drum mics from Audiopile. They are absolutely AMAZING for the $180 I paid for them. The kick mic is the spitting image of a D6 and the hi-tom mics sound great on snare. The OH condensers are a pair of rebranded Chinese SDC's...same ones Cascade and Superlux carry I think. They sound great...clear and focused. Love 'em.

Frank