R
rockishell
New member
wheres the best place on the internet to buy foam for the walls. That will tell me how much I need ?Thanks . J
Leeking
New member
R
Rod Gervais
New member
rockishell said:
Are you looking for soundproofing - or sound treatment?
Foam is not a sound proofing material.
Rod
F
fitZ2
Banned
It has finally occured to me, that a "majority" of Americans have become so bamboozled by snake oil advertizing, fast food, tv on demand, the IRS, Federal Reserve notes, the Bush administration, the Hillary Clinton Feminist Welfare state child support bueacracy, corporate media news, and other modern myths, scams, ripoffs and con artists, that they have become mesmerized zombies with no ability to form rational thought, conclusions, or any other god given processes that differentiate us from a fucking aomeba.
Sad.
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
fitZ2 said:It has finally occured to me, that a "majority" of Americans have become so bamboozled by snake oil advertizing, fast food, tv on demand, the IRS, Federal Reserve notes, the Bush administration, the Hillary Clinton Feminist Welfare state child support bueacracy, corporate media news, and other modern myths, scams, ripoffs and con artists, that they have become mesmerized zombies with no ability to form rational thought, conclusions, or any other god given processes that differentiate us from a fucking aomeba.
Your observations intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
F
fitZ2
Banned
Ok. Start here.
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomf...ell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.ht
or here
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomf.../www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
Then you can subscribe. BTW, if you have ever been jailed without a trial by jury for failure to pay child support, your rights as stated on these sites, do NOT exist. If you use Federal Reserve notes to pay taxes, you have given up your right to contest their legality. If you have been beaten by police, with no redress in court, then your protection as stated above does not exist. If you pay income tax simply because they will throw you in jail if you don't, then you do not understand what the Constitution is about, or the lie that exists in the United States. Do you REALLY want to know why Kennedy was assassinated?Do a search on Silver Certificates. Then you will begin to understand what is really going on. Then do some research into the Federal Reserve. That should keep you busy for the a while. If you do NOT start to wonder what is happening in the United States by then, it won't do you any good anyway.
fitZ
K
KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
Foam is a material that helps with soundproofing. Of course, there are other techniques that help to "soundproof", but no one is really looking to totally sound proof a room, ultimately. You know what he means. I'm also looking for a good, inexpensive foam supplier.
R
Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Awww........ you had to go and do it................ I really wish you hadn't.
Sorry sir......... but you are very misinformed.
Foam does not help with soundproofing....... in fact - you can't find a single tested sound isolation wall / floor / ceiling design that uses foam product as a part of the assembly.
Foam is a product used to assist in tuning a room after isolation is completed - but it has none of the qualities needed for sound isolation - which (by the way) are (in order of importance) mass mass and more MASS.
Sorry, you really should be more carefull how you present yourself......... when you are going to do it badly you should not be in the process of explaining to someone else how little they really know.
1st - Foam is not a soundproofing "technique" - it isn't even a soundproofing product.
2nd - Of course people are looking to totally soundproof a room - the fact that it is virtually impossible doesn't change that (ultimately).
Nope - he's just like you or anyone else here......... I only know what he says......... I do not have one damned clue what he means - which is why i went out of my way to ask him........
You see - soome people are just like you - they believe in fairy tales - magic beans and dragons....... sheesh - they even believe that foam is an isolation product (I know - whoda thunk) - so when they present me with multicolored pictures - I try to ask them questions to see what they really mean.
Now - see that - you can do it......... you actually made an intelligent statement - I'm proud of you - I knew deep down that you could do it eventually......... although "good" and "inexpensive" are probably mutually exclusive terms when it comes to these products.
Sincerely,
Rod
F
fitZ2
Banned
Oh brother, here we go again.
The key word here is "helps", and how you qualify that. Yes, foam absorbs to SOME extent at SOME frequencies. But unless you have a mic with a "somewhat soundproof" select switch. microphones in a booth are not predudice. They pick up ALL noise intrusion at ALL frequencies. The real key here is your noise floor outside the booth, and TRANSMISSION LOSS of the booth itself. It doesn't matter if your booth is made of tissue paper as long as it can satisfy your tolerance of ambient noise from going in, and your tolerance for sound on the inside from transmitting out. THAT is the real issue. So if FOAM satisfies this criteria, what the hell. In that case, build a booth of 4" foam panels.
BTW, if you have the correct answer to this conundrum, why did you post your OWN thread asking how to build "cheap soundproofing". This stuff never ceases to amaze me.......... daily. I must be a glutton for punishment.
fitZ
K
KevinDrummer
New member
Both of you who responded to my post (especially Gervais) are:
A) jerks - because you seem to think all others besides you are mindless morons. It's "guilty until proven innocent". Don't be so damn condescending.
B) wrong - if you don't think absorbtion is (or can be) a major part of soundproofing. I know the physics.
I know that slapping some wedgie foam on a wall isn't the "correct" way to make a soundproof room, but you know what? It sure does help. Not everyone has the resources to (or even needs/wants to) build a completely isolated room (and thats impossible - the one thing you so kindly blessed me with your sage agreement).
My other post says exacty what this one does - looking for a good (reputable) supplier of accoustic foams. BTW, do your own research on drum isolation chambers. You seem to imply in the other thread that they don't exist. Some are hard panelled, and some are a combination of hard and tent-like tops.
A) jerks - because you seem to think all others besides you are mindless morons. It's "guilty until proven innocent". Don't be so damn condescending.
B) wrong - if you don't think absorbtion is (or can be) a major part of soundproofing. I know the physics.
I know that slapping some wedgie foam on a wall isn't the "correct" way to make a soundproof room, but you know what? It sure does help. Not everyone has the resources to (or even needs/wants to) build a completely isolated room (and thats impossible - the one thing you so kindly blessed me with your sage agreement).
My other post says exacty what this one does - looking for a good (reputable) supplier of accoustic foams. BTW, do your own research on drum isolation chambers. You seem to imply in the other thread that they don't exist. Some are hard panelled, and some are a combination of hard and tent-like tops.
B
bradly
New member
Rod Gervais said:
uhh... wow that was hash.
-bradly
G
geet73
OMG!
Rod Gervais said:
I do believe that this is a good time to respond with:
"PWN3D".
R
Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Sorry - you're mistaken again - my being a jerk is genetic - it has nothing to do with thinking all others are mindless morons.
As a matter of fact - If you took the time to look through my response to anything in here (or any other BBS I spend time at) you would find that 99.9% of my responses are respectful and appreaciate the fact that most people are intelligent......... it takes a special type of person to get me going.
B) wrong - if you don't think absorbtion is (or can be) a major part of soundproofing. I know the physics.
I know that slapping some wedgie foam on a wall isn't the "correct" way to make a soundproof room, but you know what? It sure does help. Not everyone has the resources to (or even needs/wants to) build a completely isolated room (and thats impossible - the one thing you so kindly blessed me with your sage agreement).
Sorry, you are mistaken - to create sound isolation you need mass (you also need to stop air movement)
picture that 5/8" drywall has mass of (roughly) 2.625 psf..... which equals about 50.4 pcf. Now picture that typical home studio construction uses 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall for interior finishes on both sides of the walls.
Good quality acoustic foam products have mass of roughly 2.5 pcf.
So in theory - you could provide the same mass with foam as with drywall..... just you would have to use foam in a thickness of 4.24' in order to acheive the same mass.
But we now have a problem with air movement. Wherever air goes - there also goes noise....... that's why I'm such a prick when it comes to taping the base layer of drywall and caulking all edges of drywall in sound isolation walls on all of our projects (not just world class studios).
Air travels very freely through foam............ the foam has little (almost no) resistance to air movement........ so your 4.24 thick foam wall isn't really going to do much at all.
It will help deaden the room - but will not do much to stop the outside world from hearing you (or you from hearing the outside world).
As I posted earlier.......... if foam is a tried and true product for isolation (as you suggest) - why is it that we don't have any rated assemblies that use (or even mention) it? Seems to me (if it worked) companies would be chomping at the bit to expand their consumer base from treatment to isolation.
Maybe you should take the physics you know and go to these companies to let them know they're doing it wrong - straighten them out - you could make a ton of money if you doubled their sales.
Nope - not suggesting they don't exist - I might be a jerk - but I'm a long ways from stupid........ what I was saying (and if you read the post you would realize this) is that "YOU CAN'T DO THIS".
No one out here is buying these units and then taking them apart to figure out what exactly the manufacturer is doing to acheive the results they're getting - and thus no one has a design to share with you.
Oh - you can think things up - develope some theories - build everything - and then find out it doesn't work worth squat. And be out all of that money you already spent - I see people do this all the time - and then come to these BBS' trying to figure out what their problem is - and me (and other people who actually do stuff like this for a living) explain to them what their problem is - and that they have to completely rip everything apart in order to fix it............ lots and lots of money just thrown away..........
Ya ever stop to think about why they (the companies like charge what they charge for these things?........... do you have any idea of the amount of money spent on R&D - followed by testing - followed by "dayam - that didn't work - back to the drawing board"...........
So I offer you something that will work - something that (if properly constructed) I can tell you exactly the results you'll get........ it isn't my problem if that's not what you want to hear......
My question on the products was an honest one - I was curious to see the specs on what you were looking at - but it doesn't matter to me either way.
But - i did do a little searching - and found a site where someone feels the same as you - and figured out how to do it himself - he even sells the plans and specs - and claims you can get exactly the same results for about 1500 less than purchasing.
On the other hand - he doesn't provide any lab data to prove what he's built - so you will still be on your own - but at least it's the type of thing you seem to be looking for.
http://www.dawbox.com/DAWBOOTH.htm
Good luck.
Rod
K
KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
Thanks, Rod
I know about mass and sealing the room. I actually have a finished room using these principles in a formerly unfinished other room in the basement, that was just big enough for my drums - but not enough to play with other people for pure "jamming" purposes. 8'x10'x8' isolated with it's own ceiling, double drywall, not touching anything else in the house (except the concrete floor) It is isolated in the basement and is now being used by the kids as their playstation room (I kicked them out of the slightly larger space). I still maintain that deadening a room can contribute significantly to the soundPROOFING of a room - especially in very small rooms. It decreases the overall sound energy that wants to get out. I guess these are called "standing waves" - but screw the theory - I have practical experience with the phenomenon and it's quite simply LOUD AS HELL!
R
Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Kevin -
Now we're starting to get somewhere.
What you're describing is a common misconception.
Suppose for a moment that you built a wall that was for your drum room - just 2x4 walls on 16" centers....... and only one layer of 3/8" drywall on the inside of the room. NOTHING ELSE.
The vast majority of your sound would escape the room - yet what remained would still cause problems with standing waves, peaks and nulls - early reflections (especially in a small room) and you would have to treat the room to deal with this.
You would have less of a problem to deal with - because of the wall construction - because of the fact that there was less noise (over all) in the room) but you would have to deal with it none the less.
Now suppose you piled up 4' thick of foam (at 2.5pcf) in front of those walls - you would have a completely dead room - but outside of the room - you would not hear a difference of more than a few decibles of reduction in sound.
The reason for this is that although the foam would deal with the reflections - all of that piled on one side of that particular wall assembly would not mean squat for the purposes of sound isolation.
Hell, you can decrease isolation value in a wall assembly by 23 dcibels just by putting the right material in the wrong place.
Think about that for a minute - use exactly the same framing - exactly the same drywall - the same finishes - the same fasteners - and put the drywall in the wrong place - and for exactly the same money - you can get either an STC 40 wall - or an STC 63.
And it isn't intuitively obvious that this is going to happen.
So - back to the question I always ask everyone.
What is the most important thing to you - isolation - or room treatment.
If you aren't going to record - and if no-one cares about sound in the house (or neighbors if you're close enough) then let's deal with treatment -
But - if isolation is a problem - then we need to construct for that 1st - and then treat the room.
Unfortunately - there is no magic powder that makes this "cheap"
Sincerely,
Rod
K
KevinDrummer
New member
Rod, I get your point, but you described a very unrealistic hypothesis. 3 of the walls and the ceiling having nothing on them and one wall having 4' of foam.
In reality and practice, treating all the surfaces with 2" or so foam would reduce the overall sound escaping by more than a couple db. Each wall would resonate less by virtue of the attached foam, and the conducted sound would be less. I do record some though and I wouldn't want the guitar, vocals, or monitor mix to be that dead on the high freqs, though. The drums I don't mind being completely dead, but my room sizes don't leave me the option of different treatments.
I'm sure you guys get frustrated with the eggcrate/foam questions to solve all the problems, but perhaps in the process you've downplayed the usefulness of those products.
In reality and practice, treating all the surfaces with 2" or so foam would reduce the overall sound escaping by more than a couple db. Each wall would resonate less by virtue of the attached foam, and the conducted sound would be less. I do record some though and I wouldn't want the guitar, vocals, or monitor mix to be that dead on the high freqs, though. The drums I don't mind being completely dead, but my room sizes don't leave me the option of different treatments.
I'm sure you guys get frustrated with the eggcrate/foam questions to solve all the problems, but perhaps in the process you've downplayed the usefulness of those products.
G
geet73
OMG!
It's been said a gazillion times. Foam has little to no effect on low frequency reflections. It has a large effect on high frequencies.
I would take a guess that if you coated a room that small with 2" foam, it would sound pretty muddy. Then again, I'm not educated.
I would take a guess that if you coated a room that small with 2" foam, it would sound pretty muddy. Then again, I'm not educated.
R
Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Kevin,
I am actually talking the most realistic situation. The testing of assemblies for Isolating Values is not done with full rooms being assembled.
Rather - each component of the assembly is constructed - sealed into the testing chamber - and tested independently.
2nd........ I am very accurate about the gain you would have with installing the foam...... this is not a dream I'm having here.
You are very mistaken sir..........
Sorry - all that the attachment of foam to the wall would succeed in doing would be to slightly change the center frequency of the wall - so it would transmit more of a different frequency - but it would not give you a weighted average drop of a couple of DB.........
I really am sorry - but it just doesn't work the way you think it does.
Eggcrates are usefull for putting eggs in - they have no value whatsoever in either sound isolation or treatment (or any other area of construction - and I've been doing this my entire adult life).
Foam is a very usefull product in the area of sound treatment - and Aurelex has some of the better foam products on the market....... but (regardless of whether you choose to believe the truth or not) they are not isolation products.
HOWEVER - I do not feel like beating this particular horse any longer....... if you want cheap foam - look at "foam by mail" ..... they also sell on ebay....
BUT - understand that this is not the same product being provided by Auralex or other reputable foam acoustic companies.......... it does not have the same densities - tis a case of "you get what you pay for".
As for other "cheap" sources of foam - if it isn't acoustic foam then it's just death waiting to happen....... so no matter how cheap you get it - it isn't worth it. If it is not flame treated for installation as an interior finish - then it's going to create a death trap.
Ask the people who died in Rhode Island........ they'll tell you just how fast it goes up in flames.
Good Luck,
Rod
K
KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
I love beating dead horses - they kick less!
1. You said your example was very realistic and then said these "assemblies" are "tested" independently. I work for a testing company and I'm familiar with testing practices - but the final installation with all the nuances is what we're after - right? I'm not tyring to test things.
2. I put my sentence together wrong on the eggcrate thing... I was relating your frustration with foam and eggcrate, but was only speaking to the value of foam.
3. You're saying that foam attachment would increase the sound transmission of certain (lower) frequencies? I don't think so.
4. I don't usually use pyrotech stuff in my basement studio.
5. I never asked for a source of "cheap" foam. I asked for a inexpensive supplier of good foam.
6. Give me theory all day. I won't pretend that I can put it all down in an equation. But I've been in rooms above and next door to "foamed" and "unfoamed" rooms - and there is a difference - and it's more than a few db (even in the lower frequencies). No - it won't give total isolation ...never said it would.
B
bigdaddyd
New member
Knowing that U2's Joshua tree was recorded in a house, mad season recorded in a house, the beatles..... etc... Can it be assumed that if we dont build our rooms PERFECT- that we can still turn out some decent recordings. If we call foam 'acoustic' or not, does it matter. Does caulking around all the boxes make an audible difference. One layer or two. ETC.....
No disrespect here intended, but if guys can show up and turn out these killer albums with some 'Surface' room treatments, I cant help but wonder what the fuss is all about.
My gut feeling is that anyone with enough financial backing to go the full mile would not be asking questions on a message board, But all of us guys that will build on a budget and fall short of the perfect room are probably the majority here. the pros are here giving advice.
I would think if a client wants perfection, and pays for it, give it. But isnt it possible for the majority of us hobbyist and maybe even serious musicians to record in a less than perfect room and still get great results?
Im only respectfully asking
Ok, now im bent over, you can begin lashing.....
D
No disrespect here intended, but if guys can show up and turn out these killer albums with some 'Surface' room treatments, I cant help but wonder what the fuss is all about.
My gut feeling is that anyone with enough financial backing to go the full mile would not be asking questions on a message board, But all of us guys that will build on a budget and fall short of the perfect room are probably the majority here. the pros are here giving advice.
I would think if a client wants perfection, and pays for it, give it. But isnt it possible for the majority of us hobbyist and maybe even serious musicians to record in a less than perfect room and still get great results?
Im only respectfully asking
Ok, now im bent over, you can begin lashing.....
D