Acoustic guitar pickup - need suggestions

[muttley600]

Of course amplifying a piezo on one small area, or an internal mic, is only going to give an approximation of a guitar's real sound. No one's arguing for the superiority of piezos over good mic technique for realistic capture. The OP is about how to amplify an ac guitar inexpensively.

Very true, but the debate has started to talk about the virtues of "a more natural sound" or the "most acoustic sound" amongst other things. These things are not just subjective but at present unrealistic.

The OP now has a good many pickups to consider, but a true acoustic sound via any PA will always be the "Holy Grail" in terms of acoustic players. Just pointing out that with any processed signal you are not going to get there. Just look at where and what you want to play and you will find a sound that will work..

Internal mics as far as I'm concerned are the worst, but hey thats just my view.

 

[Light]

You know, lately we've been selling a lot of the Fishman Elipse systems. Basically, a Matrix with an internal microphone you can blend in, but for less than the cost of a Pocket Blender. When I am talking them up to people, they frequently ask, "so, the mic gives you the sound of the guitar, right?"

Well, no. At least, I've always had a hard time listening to my guitar with my head through the soundhole.

What they do, and what any of the multi source systems do, is to add another source for the sound. This gives you a more complex sound, and what with the complex nature of the guitar, you have something which some people find more apealing. Personally, I hate the sound of internal microphones, and no matter how you set the so called "phase" switch (really a polarity switch), they always sound phasey and weird to my ear. Not to mention all the times I've listened to a soloed internal microphone which was picking up more drums than guitar.

As I've said many times before, I would much rather a Sunrise with a undersaddle pickup (these days, my personal favorite is the D-Tar stuff, because I really hear the difference with the 18v preamp). They are both very resistant to feedback, and they have complementary sounds (the undersaddle for the upper harmonics, and the Sunrise for the lower end stuff and the fundimental).

But I still keep selling the Elipse, and I have never once had a customer come back unhappy because they purchased one, so maybe my ear is just weird.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Vikki]

I have to admit i never really considered using the UST plus the Sunrise....could be a good combination, thanks for that.
Vikki(uk)

 

[muttley600]

I hate the sound of internal microphones, and no matter how you set the so called "phase" switch (really a polarity switch), they always sound phasey and weird to my ear. Not to mention all the times I've listened to a soloed internal microphone which was picking up more drums than guitar.

Yep, and have a habit of booming at the body resonances or AO frequencies. Every guitar has these and if they happen to be close to a fundemental you've had it.

I've always had a hard time listening to my guitar with my head through the soundhole.

LOL. Love it, the very idea. Maybe we should collaborate and build one where that would be possible.

 

[Light]

Yep, and have a habit of booming at the body resonances or AO frequencies. Every guitar has these and if they happen to be close to a fundemental you've had it.

I think another part of the problem is that the reflections inside the box there just kind of end up being phasey before you even add another source. You've just got too many reflections which are too close to one another. Just, bleh!

The only thing I think sounds as bad is the new "modelers" that are out there. Granted that I have never heard one which was "custom" programed to a partiicular guitar, but we are a pretty big Fishman dealer so when they came out with the Aura they sent us one. The universal view was that it sounded best in bypass.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

Have to admitt to never having even tried one so I can't comment. It all goes back to processing the signal rather than capturing it though so I can't imagine that they are going to be a whole lot better at capturing the sound. Maybe better at getting a generic acoustic sound!!?? The acoustic is an intimate instrument that doesn't lend it self to large room or loud bands. I think we just have to live with that..

The phasing issue I think has to do with the body resonances. They act by pumping air very powerfully around the chambre at certain frequencies and dominate other movement of the plates and in the box. I always tune my boxes to make sure that the main AO frequencies are not near a note. I tune my top and back plates in the same way. Not to a specific note but so the two are less likely to couple with each other and produce dead or live notes or worse case the dreaded wolfnote. I know some people who religiously try to tune every part of the build to certain notes. Works for them but not for me. I just try to build out possible problems and work to what I know gives consistant results.

 

[mrbowes]

I really appreciate all the replies - I've received far more input than I thought I would.

I'm checking out the Dean Markley transducer - I like the cost and simplicity, although I'm worried about feedback in a live setting.

I'll be playing open mics and smaller bars, so there won't always be a sound man, which is why I'm concerned with the feedback issue. Has anyone used the DM transducer in a similar live environment?

I still havn't had time to really dig into all of these suggestions, but I promise I will and will report back when I've found a working solution. Thanks again, everyone who replied.

 

[muttley600]

In general you will get more feedback problems with a transducer than with a soundhole pickup. Unless you have a guy at a mixing desk or a good eq to hand I would avoid them. For plug and play and all round adaptability I would still go with the Fishman but its down to what sounds good to you on your guitar in the end. YMMV

 

[Phoneboy]

Heres a good website to look at.

I have the K&K pure western in my Alvarez AJ60. It already had a UST and pre-amp w/an AUX jack. Sounds way better than most PUPS I've heard. takes alot to get feed back. The B-band UST/AST w/ pre-amp is the 1 I will probably get for my Guild GAD-55

Most usable PUPS will require you to istall an End pin JK. Not hard to do just take your time and use a new quality drill bit. I use 3. 1st is a small pilothole. ream it with 2nd 1,1/2 -3/4 the size of the hole needed. finish with the correct size bit.

 

[muttley600]

Not hard to do just take your time and use a new quality drill bit. I use 3. 1st is a small pilothole. ream it with 2nd 1,1/2 -3/4 the size of the hole needed. finish with the correct size bit.

The correct way is to pull tho old end pin and plug the hole ith a good fitting dowel. Mask over the finish with a good low tack tape to help avoid chipping the finish Mark the centre of the new hole. I then drill a pilot hole and use a reamer to open the hole to the correct size. Most people will not have access to a reamer so get hold of the correct size Forsner drill bit and go slowly with that. Drill a test hole to check the fit first. The three main pitfalls to watch out for are chippng the finish, a Forsner bit avoids this if used correctly. Break out on the inside of the end block, go SLOWLY. Drilling the hole of axis.

 

[LI_Slim]

muttley,


I'm actually thinking of just looking at an inexpensive acoustic/electric now for playing live. My Aria cost less than $200 (tho I feel it was a bargain for the quality of the materials/construction), so spending $200+ on a pickup system seems silly.

Any good suggestions for acoustic/electrics in the < $400 range. I want to buy used, and I'd rather buy a Japan or USA made guitar, though I'm open to other suggestions.

I would consider a Seagull acoustic/electric. You can get a new S series model in the 400-500 range. Amplified or not it's a lot nicer than an Aria.

http://www.seagullguitars.com/intro.htm

http://www.gguitars.com/sea06193132.html

 

[mrbowes]

I would consider a Seagull acoustic/electric. You can get a new S series model in the 400-500 range. Amplified or not it's a lot nicer than an Aria.

I've played Seagulls, and they are nice guitars for the money. Never tried an A/E Seagull, though.

My Aria is not a modern day Aria. It's a 70s MIJ model and it's a smaller body (fits in a classical guitar case). Again, my guitar doesn't sound huge (which I like, especially for recording), but it's balanced and most importantly, it stays in tune for days.

I've tried some modern Arias and they simply don't compare to the vintage MIJ models...

Older Arias are really fine instruments IMO. I'll keep your suggestion in mind - thank you!

 

[XLR]

I'm checking out the Dean Markley transducer - I like the cost and simplicity, although I'm worried about feedback in a live setting.

I'll be playing open mics and smaller bars, so there won't always be a sound man, which is why I'm concerned with the feedback issue. Has anyone used the DM transducer in a similar live environment?

Hundreds of times in dozens of settings.. restaurants, bars, cafes. No sound man. Never had a feedback problem, even sitting on the amp.

Tim

 

[stetto]

I've played Seagulls, and they are nice guitars for the money. Never tried an A/E Seagull, though.

The guitar my Ibeam is in is a Seagull S6. It sounds fantastic live. The S6 does not come stock with the Baggs system, rather a Godin (Seagull's Mommy) product, if ordered with electronics. If you buy a non-transducered S6 in the store, they'd be happy to hand it to you with a store-installed Ibeam, Fishman, or whatever setup you request and are willing to pay the to-boot for.

Eric

 

[muttley600]

Stick with your Aria they made some lovely guitars in the 70's. Vastly underated.

 

[Light]

The correct way is to pull tho old end pin and plug the hole ith a good fitting dowel. Mask over the finish with a good low tack tape to help avoid chipping the finish Mark the centre of the new hole. I then drill a pilot hole and use a reamer to open the hole to the correct size. Most people will not have access to a reamer so get hold of the correct size Forsner drill bit and go slowly with that. Drill a test hole to check the fit first. The three main pitfalls to watch out for are chippng the finish, a Forsner bit avoids this if used correctly. Break out on the inside of the end block, go SLOWLY. Drilling the hole of axis.

Well, we just ream out the end pin hole. Either LMI or Stew Mac used to have an end pin reamer that would only cut to the size of a end pin jack. VERY nice to have.

Oh, and if your guitar has a thick end block, the jack may not be long enough and you need to make some room on the inside. THAT takes a special tool, and is absolutly a professional job. It doesn't happen often, though. (Actually, as far as I'm concerned, any pickup install is a professional job, if for no other reason than you void your warranty if you don't have it done by a pro.)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Stick with your Aria they made some lovely guitars in the 70's. Vastly underated.

Damn right. They still make some nice ones. The non-Alvarez Yari's are really nice too.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[sdelsolray]

I want to play my acoustic guitar live. Instead of using a mic, I'd like the freedom of using a pickup.

I have a 70s Aria small body guitar. It doesn't have a huge sound, but it's well balanced and stays in tune for days.

I'd prefer a pickup that's less than $100. I'd also prefer it if it was easily installable/removable. I don't want to do any serious surgery on my guitar, and I'd rather not go through the expense of having a tech do it (unless it's pretty much required for decent tone out of a pickup).

I'm pretty ignorant regarding acoustic guitar pickups, so please offer me your suggestions. Thanks so much.

You've gotten some good info and tips from several posters. Many folks will suggest that you spend an hour and listen to Doug Young's pickup samples at his site:

Acoustic Guitar Pickup Comparisons

 

[muttley600]

Well, we just ream out the end pin hole. Either LMI or Stew Mac used to have an end pin reamer that would only cut to the size of a end pin jack. VERY nice to have.

I like to plug the hole first it dosen't take long. Mainly because I do a lot of gamba and violin bushing and its kind of a habit. it reduces the risk of the reamer wandering as well. I have an endpin reamer. I had a load of reamers in various sizes made by an uncle who runs a specialise blade sharpening buisiness. Really handy for keeping planer blades and reamers etc razor sharp I also have a special forsner bit made for opening out the inside of the end block if needs be. Basicaly it is just a 1" forsner with a 1/4" guide pin on the end. Stick it in a swan neck and drill away. Job done in 30 secounds. You judge the depth of cut by how far the guide pin exits the body.

I'd agree about getting a pro to fit any pickup for warrenty sake. Even though I consider them a pain and a bit of a distraction these days. It dosen't take long and you will also have piece of mind that the job should have been done correctly.

 

[Light]

I also have a special forsner bit made for opening out the inside of the end block if needs be. Basicaly it is just a 1" forsner with a 1/4" guide pin on the end. Stick it in a swan neck and drill away. Job done in 30 secounds. You judge the depth of cut by how far the guide pin exits the body.

Ours is much the same, but it works backwards, so you stick the shaft through the reamed out hole, and attach the drill on the outside of the body. You can then pull the drill. Works great, but it needs sharpening right now. Well, you know how that goes, to much to do, never enoungh time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi