A question for PRO's only.

[axeshredder]

If one wants to pan a track say 3 o'clock but only have that track in the 3 o'clock position, not louder in 3 0'clock and lower on the other side of the spectrum. how is this done.? This seems obvious but when i start panning my tracks around , ones recorded in stereo and mono..(cuz i thought recording in Mono was how to do this ) they get lower (volume) on one side and louder on the other to sound like its in the 3 o'clock position..this is not good! I want the track to stay the same volume as i slide it over to 3.


anyways the only song off the top of my head that has this "effect"? is Last dance with Mary Jane by Tom Petty.
the intro guitar comes in abit on the right.. and ONLY on the right
there is no other sound on the left of that same track.

thanks
a Newb

 

[sjjohnston]

Sorry, I'm not a "pro," so I guess I can't answer that.

 

[pipelineaudio]

many consoles make hard pans 6 dB louder than center, and if you are using a software app, there is probably a " pan law " function you can edit in there

 

[littledog]

Any panning that is not either hard left or hard right is a psycho-acoustic illusion. Think about it...

Let's take a traditional stereo system: you only have two speakers - a left and a right. There is no center speaker. To create the illusion of a particular sound coming from the center, the signal has to be distributed exactly equally between the two speakers. Assuming they are placed symmetrically in a symmetrical room (and you don't have any outboard eq or other processing added to just one side) you get a phantom image of the sound coming from a spot dead center between the speakers. Although you can swear that's where it's coming from, there is no speaker dead center - it's an effect achieved by equal summing of the left and right speakers.

Any other intermediate panning position is created by adding some to one side and subtracting some from the other - there's no other way, other than physically getting up and moving your speakers around.

Now, it may sound to you like the panned image on some records is placed more precisely than on others. This could well be due to how ambience is added. Most reverbs are stereo, and if you add a stereo reverb to a panned dry signal, the location in the sound field can become less precise. Especially if you are using a reverb that sums the signals to mono for processing and then splits it up again at the output stage. If you want a more precise location in the sound field, try keeping it dry.

Remember - two speakers. All panned sound can only be a ratio between the two: 100%/0%, 90%/10%, 80%/20%, 70%/30%, 60%/40%, 50%/50%, 40%/60%, etc.

Here's a simple test to prove this theory: put on that record by Tom Petty and when that 3:00 guitar comes in, unplug or turn off one of your speakers. Guess what? It ain't at three o'clock anymore!

By the way, I AM a pro - I have the pimp to prove it.

 

[sjjohnston]

There are two possible points of confusion here:

- Pan laws

- How panning works in the first place.

Taking the second point first:

If the problem you (the original poster) have is that you're bothered that turning the pan pot just makes the sound get quieter in one channel than it is in the other ... well, you're in trouble, because that's what pan pots do.

It's a fair observation that the way we perceive the location of a sound is far more complex than simply relative volume left-to-right. Timing / phase issues come into play ... as well as considerably more complex perceptions of the reverberations that reflect off of nearby surfaces. You can fool with that stuff if you want, but a pan pot won't do it. (Actually, there was something called "Q-Sound" that did some sort of time shifting in response to movements of the pan pot ... but so far as I know that's pretty dead).

First point:

Exactly how much the pan pot should make the sound quieter as you turn it depends on the pan law of whatever you're working with. It varies a bit. Generally, you should become used to the fact that when you change the pan position of something, you'll probably want to consider changing its overall level also. That's probably going to be the case, no matter what pan law you use.

[A clarification: littledog's post was added while I was writing the above ... nothing in it is a response to what he said]

 

[axeshredder]

Thanks!

I unplugged the speaker and infact heard that the guitar wasn't ONLY on the right side it was just so low on the left side because of how hard it was panned right. But by listening to two speakers at once it sounds impossible to hear.

So I guess if there was a way to chop off that low left hand volume it would make less noise on the over all mix? or it sounds like it would totally change the sound? (for the worse!)

woohoo

 

[chessrock]

Re: Thanks!

So I guess if there was a way to chop off that low left hand volume it would make less noise on the over all mix? or it sounds like it would totally change the sound? (for the worse!)

It would just sound like it was panned all the way right.

 

[ambi]

Yea i'm a pro fo real man. I've been practicing this face for centuries, how you like my ART studio MP, i mean come on it has TOOBS!

 

[sjoko2]

Take a signal and copy it (if digital) or record it (if analogue) to a new track, so now you have 2 tracks the same.
Apply a desired effect to one of the tracks - less, different, or no effect to the other track.
Now balance the 2 tracks within the mix.

and for future reference, to state 'for pro's only' is a good way not to get an answer from any of the 'pro's' here

 

[jake-owa]

Re: A question for PRO's only.

BOOOOO!!

 

[crosstudio]

smart man. got the attention of pros and those who want to be.

he's a marketing genious.

 

[Light]

Well, I am no longer a pro, so I wasn't going to answer your question, but then I changed my mind. Amplitude panning, by definition, attenuates the signal on one side, and raises it in the other. This is what the pan knob does, if it is working right. The truth is, however, that amplitude panning will only really give you three to five different possitions. Center, hard left, and hard right. Some people, some of the time, can hear panning midway between center and hard panning, which would give you a total of 5 possitions. The problem is that your ears do not percive possitioning from volume alone.

Most of the information which tells you WHERE a sound is coming from is related to time. There is, however, another form of panning. Time panning. First, you pan a signal HARD to the side you want it to apper to come from. You then send it to a delay line (I like the Roland SDE-3000, or a Lexicon PCM-60 or -61) which gets panned hard to the other side. The level of the signal can be the same on both sides. You set the delay line to a single repeat, no feedback or modulation. You can then adjust the possition of the sound by adjusting the length of the delay. Your time should not be long enough to hear a slap back.

The effect of delay panning can be quite astonising. With amplitude pannig, you must sit in the exact center to hear the panning. if you move even a little bit, you change the possitioning, and it is difficult for more than one person to hear the effect of the panning. using delay panning. the effect can be heard anywhere in the room. With amplitude panning. the widest signal you can get is the width of your speakers. With delay panning, you can pan things far outside the width of your speakers. Combine the amplitude and delay panning, and you can blow people away.

Of course, delay panning has drawbacks. It eats up processing, return channels, and sends. It can also, if used carlessly, lead to a smearing of the beat. It must be used sparingly, and carfully. Use it right, however, and you will be quite pleased with the results.

You know, I almost hate to put this information in this thread, because the tone of the first post will make many people not want to read the thread. Try to be a little less annoying in your tone, O.K.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[littledog]

The truth is, however, that amplitude panning will only really give you three to five different possitions. Center, hard left, and hard right. Some people, some of the time, can hear panning midway between center and hard panning, which would give you a total of 5 positions. The problem is that your ears do not percive positioning from volume alone.

Light, I have heard this many times before, and certainly have tremendous respect for your opinions. But I insist that I can hear more than 5 panning positions. Maybe it's one of those issues like information above 22,000 Hz - while no one can really "hear" it, there is evidence that accurate reproduction of that information can make a difference in the perceived overall sound.

All I know is that when placing a guitar or triangle, for example, in an overall mix, 10% incremental changes are definitely audible to me in terms of an altered mix. Am I just deluding myself? I'm pretty sure the Pro Tools panning laws include any sort of delay...

 

[Light]

Congratulations littledog, you have unusually good ears. Most people can not hear panning information that well, but it is like all things, and different people hear differently. None the less, if you were to try delay panning, you would find the available spectrum much more precise. Most of the time, when I am just amplitude panning, I can point to the approximate position. When I use delay panning, I can point to the exact position, and I can do so immediately.

I don't know if you remember all the different 3D audio companies which came out in the early nineties, but they where (mostly) based around the idea of delay panning, with some other minor (and supposedly proprietary) differences. I heard one demonstration where you would sit in a chair in a control room with a pair of headphones, and you would hear a knock on the door directly behind you. When you turned around, there was no door. I was told that every single person to receive this demo turned around to open the door. The problem was that it only worked with headphones, so it was not a particularly viable product. Very few CDs where ever made with 3D sound. Sting's "Soul Cages" was done with a system called Q-sound, if you want to check out 3D sound.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[axeshredder]

Thanks for the info, sorry to offend. I am most rude.

I must try this delay technique, and recording things in stereo properly. I didnt know when i run my pod into my converters i should set up my software to record two separate tracks! DUH. I was recording both lines into one track.... so what would that be ? fake mono?

 

[littledog]

Thanks for the info, sorry to offend. I am most rude.

I must try this delay technique, and recording things in stereo properly. I didnt know when i run my pod into my converters i should set up my software to record two separate tracks! DUH. I was recording both lines into one track.... so what would that be ? fake mono?

No, it's real mono. Summed mono to be precise. Because some of the effects in the pod involve the left and right sides being out of phase, summing to mono may actually cancel out some of your sound - so when you record it to two tracks (and, importantly, pan the tracks one left and one right) you may start hearing a lot of stuff that you never heard before! Note: if you forget to pan the two tracks, you'll STILL have mono!

Don't be embarassed - there's nobody here that hasn't learned a lot by making dumb mistakes. You'll always make some, it's just with time and experience you hopefully make them less often.

By the way, there may be times when you want to only have a mono guitar track. Like if you are layering a whole bunch of guitars and are going to pan them individually.

 

[Light]

Myself, I use very few stereo tracks. I would rather have everything mono, and then I can create my own stereo image, ala Tchad Blake/Mitchell Froom. I have never found stereo tracks to be particularly appealing. They take up too much room in the mix. I frequently even record drums in mono. One large diaphragm omni just over the drummers head, and maybe a kick mic. It sounds great, and I can place things where I want them. But that's just my opinion, and I have never been accused of being humble.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[subtractor]

I must try this delay technique, and recording things in stereo properly. I didnt know when i run my pod into my converters i should set up my software to record two separate tracks! DUH. I was recording both lines into one track.... so what would that be ? fake mono?

Sir... Move along please! These are the "PRO'S"! Everybody knows you don't bother the "PRO'S" with such assinine NEWBIE questions. Now go freshen up, rethink your shit, and comeback when you can ask a real question without looking so silly!

 

[TexRoadkill]

Light- According to the theories on using delay for fake surround sound when you have a delay of less than 40ms on a direct sound (not ambient) it does not change your perception of placement in the stereo field.

If you hard pan right and delay less than 40ms it will still sound like it's coming from the right with an echo on the left but it won't really move the sound to a 12-3 oclock position unless you really lower the volume of the original track. Do you end up having the delayed signal a lot hotter than the original?

I like to use delays like that for percussive sounds but I've never really noticed that it takes the place of panning. It definately gives a wider stereo feel but in order to be more subtle I find that you still have to pan each channel around 3 oclock.

 

[MikeA]

Another possibility lies in using the LCR function that is available on some consoles (usually live boards.) With this you have a button which engages the LCR circuit. If the signal remains panned to the center, it will be sent to the Center mix buss. If it is panned to the left the signal moves between the center and left buss. It does the opposite if it is panned to the right. Of course, this is not really an option for Axeshredder because he would have to mix down to a 3 track machine and then listen to it through a Left, Right, Center speaker system but it is another way of getting the sound to come only out at the 3:00 position.