C
Cloneboy Studio
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crazydoc said:
That's my point, oh man of capital letters.
That's my point, oh man of capital letters.
C
Cloneboy Studio
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chessrock said:
Of course I was being facetious when I stated that. Having 2nd engineers come in and splitting the rate is more than fair when they are using the owner's mics and equipment and facilities.
crazydoc
Master Baiter
Big and bold, but not capital.Cloneboy Studio said:
I picked up a note of condescension in your posts - I just wanted to point out that this is home recording, and we're not all a bunch of AE wannabees. I am enjoying the thread though - maybe I can use the information when I'm born again into another life.
C
Cloneboy Studio
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crazydoc said:Big and bold, but not capital.
I picked up a note of condescension in your posts - I just wanted to point out that this is home recording, and we're not all a bunch of AE wannabees. I am enjoying the thread though - maybe I can use the information when I'm born again into another life.
The way some people talk around here, they think they're the next George Massenburg and Mutt Lange all rolled into one and they are bound and determined to prove to you how wrong you are. Hence the condescension.
D
DJL
Self Banned
You wish... lol.crazydoc said:maybe I can use the information when I'm born again into another life.
I
invisiblenemies
Active member
slobbermonster said:
Come on, guy...I do all of this now. I have a home studio too, man...when i'm not working or playing out, i'm in that damn studio "til the wee hours of the morning". I don't care about the small pay. I'm a musician - I have given up the dream of a huge bank account. I don't want to sell out and be a lawyer or a doctor. I don't want to be like everyone else...that's why i play music. Of course, it would be nice to catch a break - but I'm not counting on it. I just don't care about the money enough. It has to be about the music.
I am also thinking about going to school for this. I hear everyone talk about long hours and hard work and little pay. Jesus, man. What am I dealing with now? My miserable life can't get much worse. I've tried going to school for professional things..now i'm a cubicle whore waiting for 5 o'clock. I'd much rather go to school and say 'Damn! I made a mistake going there', than go through half the motions and never dedicate myself to anything, in fear of being rejected. Fuck that, man. I don't want to be that middle aged, southern rock tribute band member that drives my lexus to my office job that i hate during the week only to ride around every weekend on my harley...acting like i'm a hard ass. There's too many of them already. Everywhere I turn, it's the same. Failed musicians and failed producers. I don't want to meet them in the middle. Fuck the middle, man.
To the original poster: go to school for something you love. Don't be like every other asshole who drives around in their SUV to their suburban home, soccer mom whore of a wife, and 2.5 rotten, spoiled kids.
Music isn't exciting when it's filtered. I don't want to be filtered either..I urge you to do the same.
D
DJL
Self Banned
"My smile is a rifle."
Is that a song title? It reminds me of Happiness by the beatles.
Is that a song title? It reminds me of Happiness by the beatles.
I
invisiblenemies
Active member
John Frusciante - Niandra LaDes & Usually Just a T-Shirt
OneRoomStudios
New member
Yeah for Frusciante...he rocks. Now he's doing 6 albums in 6 months...not a lot of musicians that will put that kind of pressure on themselves. The stuff he did with Ataxia is crazy good. To Record Only Water For Ten Days is a masterpeice.
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darnold
New member
I havnt read this entire thread, because its very long already and it seems like everyones supporting the same idea.
But i think i have a different opinion and view about it all.
I think really it all comes down to survival of the fittest. The studios that actually have something to offer will come out ahead. This has already been mentioned of course. But also, if you notice with everything in life is they come in patterns. It has been said many times that recording has gotten cheaper but so has the quality. At least in my area, people are starting to see that. People stop going to the dirt cheap $5 an hour studios because they realize that it just doesnt sound good, and decide they want something that sounds right. The way i see it, is its not really the homerecording wave that hit the business hard, thats just plain generic competition. What hit it hard is the people who do shit work and charge next to nothing. It could happen to any type of business. If i started a burger franchise that cost half as less as any other burger franchise the economics of the market would have to change. So the way i see it, its just a combination of bad marketing from all the new people getting into the business. Seriously though, do you think that if people stopped working for dirt cheap, like $5 an hour we would have as big as a problem? If everyone even took it up a step so the newbies who make $5 are now making $25 and the studio who is making $35 is now making $55 etc the market would balance out much better. Because then it wouldnt be a matter of people trying to get dirt cheap recordings but they would actually have to think about where they are putting their money. And the people who dont cut it will be ran out of the business. That way too, it would be more worth it for everyone to make it into recording.
So i think the real problem is its just very unstable and unbalanced economically. The over abundance of new people wanted to get into it and getting in to it very easily then charging much less than its worth. Seriously, think about it, all we need to do is up the value of recording in general.
Doing things this cheap also has a psychological effect on the market in general. Any time you charge less than the worth the market sees no value in it. Think about it, lets say for example someone came up to you and asked if this once they could borrow one of your nice mics for free. You let them this once and it keeps it value. But lets say they come up to you 30 times after that for the same thing and you keep letting them rent it for free. Probably after the 3rd time that happens it really has no value to them. They are thinking they can get it anytime they want for free.
Same thing, we have cheapened the value of recording in general. The market does not see it as a privilige to record anymore just something they go do at their neighbors house.
And ultimately like was stated before, people are settling for less now adays with quality. The people who are serious about their music have stopped settling for it but are they coming to you? You, everyone, and I could be the very shit that were talking about.
Finally, if we do wonna keep this market going we need to stop selling us short. Its starting at the bottom of the chain. Its not a thing i expect to happen really. But seriously, stop selling your services short. Even you people with a few SM57s a soundcard and a computer with pirated software, seriously is $5 worth your time?
Maybe for some, but even those with alot more than that are have to settle for less than they are worth because of the market, but i feel some just do it so they can record more. The downside to this plan is you really might not get many people coming to you anymore, but if thats true then you probably shouldnt be in the business because you have nothing to hold your clients with. And you wont be able to learn as fast? Well then a school might actually be worth it in this case. Kinda sucks, but it will save the market.
Anyway, thats just my thoughts on the whole thing. It will take everyone doing this at once for it to really make a big effect so i doubt it will happen. But think, in the short run it might suck for everyone, but in the long run it will probably be better because their will still be something there to run a career off it.
Danny
But i think i have a different opinion and view about it all.
I think really it all comes down to survival of the fittest. The studios that actually have something to offer will come out ahead. This has already been mentioned of course. But also, if you notice with everything in life is they come in patterns. It has been said many times that recording has gotten cheaper but so has the quality. At least in my area, people are starting to see that. People stop going to the dirt cheap $5 an hour studios because they realize that it just doesnt sound good, and decide they want something that sounds right. The way i see it, is its not really the homerecording wave that hit the business hard, thats just plain generic competition. What hit it hard is the people who do shit work and charge next to nothing. It could happen to any type of business. If i started a burger franchise that cost half as less as any other burger franchise the economics of the market would have to change. So the way i see it, its just a combination of bad marketing from all the new people getting into the business. Seriously though, do you think that if people stopped working for dirt cheap, like $5 an hour we would have as big as a problem? If everyone even took it up a step so the newbies who make $5 are now making $25 and the studio who is making $35 is now making $55 etc the market would balance out much better. Because then it wouldnt be a matter of people trying to get dirt cheap recordings but they would actually have to think about where they are putting their money. And the people who dont cut it will be ran out of the business. That way too, it would be more worth it for everyone to make it into recording.
So i think the real problem is its just very unstable and unbalanced economically. The over abundance of new people wanted to get into it and getting in to it very easily then charging much less than its worth. Seriously, think about it, all we need to do is up the value of recording in general.
Doing things this cheap also has a psychological effect on the market in general. Any time you charge less than the worth the market sees no value in it. Think about it, lets say for example someone came up to you and asked if this once they could borrow one of your nice mics for free. You let them this once and it keeps it value. But lets say they come up to you 30 times after that for the same thing and you keep letting them rent it for free. Probably after the 3rd time that happens it really has no value to them. They are thinking they can get it anytime they want for free.
Same thing, we have cheapened the value of recording in general. The market does not see it as a privilige to record anymore just something they go do at their neighbors house.
And ultimately like was stated before, people are settling for less now adays with quality. The people who are serious about their music have stopped settling for it but are they coming to you? You, everyone, and I could be the very shit that were talking about.
Finally, if we do wonna keep this market going we need to stop selling us short. Its starting at the bottom of the chain. Its not a thing i expect to happen really. But seriously, stop selling your services short. Even you people with a few SM57s a soundcard and a computer with pirated software, seriously is $5 worth your time?
Maybe for some, but even those with alot more than that are have to settle for less than they are worth because of the market, but i feel some just do it so they can record more. The downside to this plan is you really might not get many people coming to you anymore, but if thats true then you probably shouldnt be in the business because you have nothing to hold your clients with. And you wont be able to learn as fast? Well then a school might actually be worth it in this case. Kinda sucks, but it will save the market.
Anyway, thats just my thoughts on the whole thing. It will take everyone doing this at once for it to really make a big effect so i doubt it will happen. But think, in the short run it might suck for everyone, but in the long run it will probably be better because their will still be something there to run a career off it.
Danny
D
darnold
New member
Hope that wasnt too complicated. I didnt write it all out in a very good mapped order. The value of the service part should probably go above the first main paragraph.
If i need to rewrite i will or if i need to explain things that dont make sense.
Danny
If i need to rewrite i will or if i need to explain things that dont make sense.
Danny
H
Han
New member
invisiblenemies said:
Hmm....sounds like a juvenile to me. C'mon man, twenty years from now the world will be totally different. You can't waste any time when you're young, you'll have to plan your future now. Think and think hard, there is little future for studio's, within ten years a plumber will make a lot more $$ than the average engineer.
BrettB
Well-known member
darnold said:
When regarding 'survival of the fittest', I think there are too many 'fittest', when talking about professional recording. There are more ppl capable of growing into a professional engineering job then there are vacancies.
I
invisiblenemies
Active member
Han said:
Maybe you need to re-read my original post. I fear the major points have escaped you.
It is futile to plan your future when you're young. Things happen...plans change. If everyone did what they dreamed about when they were kids there would be trillions of firemen, astronauts, and baseball players, yet nobody to pick up the shit you throw away or deliver pizza.
If you're worried about how much "$$" the average engineer is going to make in ten years, you need to stop with music now, focus on your plumbing career (as you succinctly put it) and stop being "average".
I
invisiblenemies
Active member
OneRoomStudios said:
Definitely man. "Automatic Writing" is fantastic.
I'm always happy to meet another John fan.
You may be interested to check this out...
Click here.
Go to the 'Demos' tab at the top of the screen & enjoy. Pretty exciting, lo-fi stuff.
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chessrock
Banned
invisiblenemies said:
Yea, fuck all the middle men!
freshmattyp
New member
Hey, I think that's me, except for the Harley part. And the southern rock thing.
I love music. I love to play it, record it, and share it. I don't want it to be my job, because then I'd probably go work on computers for fun. Work is work, no matter what you do. If you're lucky enough to love your job, then so much the better. It's been my experience that no matter what you love to do, the fastest way to hate it is to try to make a living at it.
I love music. I love to play it, record it, and share it. I don't want it to be my job, because then I'd probably go work on computers for fun. Work is work, no matter what you do. If you're lucky enough to love your job, then so much the better. It's been my experience that no matter what you love to do, the fastest way to hate it is to try to make a living at it.
crazydoc
Master Baiter
invisiblenemies said:
Looks like somebody else pretty much agrees with you...
From http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/2224/16/0
There is a separate discussion here about your client base and what they can afford, which I believe is integral to your problem.
My client base is independent bands and labels. They expect the absolute most for their dollar, and I am obliged to give it to them. This inevitably means a 12- to 16-hour day, a 7-day week, a four-week month and a 12-month year, with breaks only due to the chance arrangement of schedules, cancellations and the like. Albums in three or four days -- a week tops.
I have been able to maintain this schedule for many years (I sleep very little, and it hasn't driven me mad yet), and I do it because this client base is more enjoyable (and I believe more important) than the client base that can afford shorter days, longer schedules and looser budgets.
If you have no affection for your clients, or you feel their work isn't valuable enough to suffer for, and they can't afford to pay you enough to work less, then by all means feel free to risk alienating them by going after bigger fish. Be warned that they have long memories, and it is not easy to climb back down the ladder if things don't work out once you and they believe you have "moved on."
I found this out the hard way when I agreed to do a couple of higher-profile records in the '90s, and on their completion nearly went broke because my clientele had (mistakenly, as I hadn't changed my rates or anything, but still) believed I was no longer "one of them," but had moved into unreachable "expensive super-pro" status.
I would also argue (strongly) against hiring a manager. I've never had one, and I've never seen the point. A manager will take some of your money, which means you'll have to charge more. A manager will be doing it in his best interest, not yours, and so will likely weed-out sessions that might be of interest to you, while accepting for you sessions whose only value is money. You may find yourself doing a two-month vanity album for a rich and deluded aspiring singer, while blowing-off three albums with bands you actually like and respect.
And since most budgets are fixed, money spent on you (and siphoned-off by your manager) will not go toward studio time. This inevitably means you'll have to work in cheaper (read: "shabbier") studios than you would like, and this will make your job harder. Efficiency at this level is vital: There is only one bucket of money, and leaks eventually empty all of it.
A manager will also certainly make enemies for you, or at least present an insulating barrier to your clients, with whom you can probably speak more intelligently yourself.
If your manager is sensitive to these concerns, and presents everything to you for your appproval, allowing you to make all the decisions and negotiations, then what good is he? He is taking your money for re-directing phone calls you would have gotten anyway.
Working hard, sleeping little and earning just-barely-enough are the hallmarks of our profession, and bucking them is a sure way to scoot yourself out of it.
That said, there are a number of for-hire engineers out there who will work on anything if the price is right, and they make a living, so I can't criticize them. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. Money isn't why I do this. Everything else is.
At this stage of our profession's development, instead of thinking "damn, I don't get enough sleep," you might consider thinking "damn, I'm glad I have all this work." Someday, sure as shit, you'll be wishing you were in this position again.
.... I think it is wise to be less greedy in exchange for being part of great and rewarding things. We are paid in ways other than money, and we contribute more than our labor.....
best,
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
www.electrical.com
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chessrock
Banned
The problem with all this is that Musicians are just a bunch 'a broke fucks.
The sooner you come to this realization, the better off you'll be.
It's just an ecomomic reality that trying to service an economic sector that has basically no buying power or disposable income . . . is probably not going to be a profitable endeavor.
The sooner you come to this realization, the better off you'll be.
It's just an ecomomic reality that trying to service an economic sector that has basically no buying power or disposable income . . . is probably not going to be a profitable endeavor.
I
invisiblenemies
Active member
crazydoc said:
See? Steve Albini gets it.
