A heretical question about amp modelers

[jake-owa]

Re: Then let's clear up the myth one more time....

There is NO SUCH THING as "digital sound".

people's sound probems - NOT the recording format.....

Look, cheap digital boxes DO indeed have a digital sound. Don't think so just pick up an early digital reverb unit, the sampling is so grainy that YES it does have a very digital sound. I also had a boss pedal box, the thing was so crisp/harsh on the heavy presets that I eventually traded it for a POD which I gave away when I bought my tech 21 amp.

True, good digital recording has no real sound (without an analog comparison)unless clean is a "sound" but these many of those cheap amp simulator boxes do sound very digital. If you can hear the difference between 32khz and 44.1khz how can you say digital has no sound? If you can't hear the difference maybe it's time for another hobby.

Digital doesn't have a sound...PLEASE.

 

[mixmkr]

why would one want to upgrade from a blackface ADAT to a 24 bit system, if digital has no sound? Why are there 192 khz sampling rates? Can digital make a PERFECT sine wave??? uuuuuh...

 

[pipelineaudio]

Digital most assuredly DOES have a sound

however

it is not just one sound
the digital sound actually comes from the analog stage of the analog to digital converters and then from the digital to analog converters

"digital does not have a sound" is true in that you cant HEAR digital sound, you can only hear analog sounds

It is INSANITY to think that digital recordings are transparent. What you put in is NOT what you get out.
Every brand of converter sounds different, some crappy, some acceptable, some actually subjectively pleasing

I am actually a full on digital guy now, and use analog tape only for fx, so dont think I'm playing the " digital vs. analog " my dad is bigger than your dad contest..I LIKE to work in digital, Im just trying to shed some light on the facts here.

there are tons and tons of factors....Libraries full of texts on the differences between converter types, the compromise of each one

"digital is digital" is the worst farce to ever hit the music industry.
Pro studios went out of business when the ADAt came out because people said " digital is digital " so why go to the real studio?
Nevermind that the converters in the ADATS were total crap compared to the Mitsubishi Pro Digi X-850's and the Sony PCM 3348 and Studer D-827 DASH format digital machines gracing pro studios at the time

it was the same as comparing 1/2" 16 track to 2" 16 track analog machines, but the public wasnt accepting that because they had been told " digital is digital "

if there is no "digital sound " why do you think that there are different sample rates and bit depths?

 

[Kelby]

I know the original post was about outboard modelers, but I have to throw in that I just tried out Amplitube and I have been very impressed. Maybe it's just me, but Amplitube was a dramatic improvement over outboard modelers I have tried. Furthermore, it has modelers for both guitar and bass. For those who have the option of a software modeler, I think $299 for Amplitube is a bargain.

As for Blue Beard's posts, I don't think anyone here would disagree with the notion that modelers won't sound as good as the real thing. But if your inventory of amps is limited, and if your skills and other recording equipment aren't yet at a professional level, then you shouldn't feel too guilty about saving some time and money by using a modeler until you are ready to take it to the next level. The original poster came with an honest and entirely appropriate question about recommendations for amp modelers. It is fair to respond with a reminder that amp modelers won't sound as good as the real thing, but not to insult him for asking the question in the first place.

Regards,
Kelby.

 

[Kelby]

Actually, I owe Blue Beard an apology. I just re-read this thread, and HapiCmpur was the first one to act like an asshole. Don't know why I thought otherwise.

And Hapi, in case you're still reading this thread, when you get someone who has actually been doing this a while telling you "if you do it the way you are planning, it's not going to sound as good as if you do it another way," that's advice worth thinking about. If after hearing that advice, you still want to do it your own way, that's a perfectly legitimate choice, but that's no reason to flame the guy who lent his wisdom.

Now that I have posted two completely opposite and schitzophrenic posts on this thread, I'm going to argue with myself about whether I should go to bed now.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Re: Re: Then let's clear up the myth one more time....

True, good digital recording has no real sound (without an analog comparison)unless clean is a "sound"...

That's exactly my point... what would be the rationale for considering "bad digital converters" a sound???

Digital doesn't have a sound...PLEASE.

If you have good converters, digital DOESN'T have a "sound".... duh...

Was there a point you were making here???

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Kelby...

...no worries!

 

[SS454]

I agree with Blue Bear. When I play guitar, I'm also playing the amp. It's something of a signature for a guitar player. A lot of amp modelers I've heard sound alright but they just don't cut it for me. Although I thought VOXVENDOR got a pretty cool sound with his.
Yeah, I think you can't beat the real thing. Plus, I like to use that ambient, air sound you get from miking. It pulls the mix together.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'd like to see some of these nuetral, transparent converters.

The reason theres always analog vs digital wars, is that converter technology still hasnt silenced SOME critics

if the converters were totally nuetral, guys would get the sound that they heard on their monitor console, when they playd it back. Noone would complain. Tape would be history...that hasnt happened yet

 

[jake-owa]

Re: Re: Re: Then let's clear up the myth one more time....

If you have good converters, digital DOESN'T have a "sound".... duh...

Was there a point you were making here???

Blue Bear, You know converters come in sooo many types/qualities with many sounding very different. Good enough is good enough, but whats that? ADAT? I can pick an ADAT track out next to a 3348 for freaking sure. Unless you mix heavy to 2 track tape to confuse me. I find it really funny that you seem to be caught in some technical context/grammar type of loop here. Can't you admit when you're wrong? Digital has no "sound" in theory but in many specific cases digital has a definate sound (I've already listed a few).

THAT was the point I was trying to make. I guess if you could easily compromise you wouldn't have nearly 5000 posts, I've seen the flame wars in the history. Sad thing is when people see your number they think it means you know alot...little do they know it's more indicative of your love of arguement. Well I love to argue too so let 'er rip!

 

[Kevzmusic]

Hi Guys,

Well, obviously the 'real thing' as Blue bear says is better than an amp modeller for tonal quality, etc...

BUT, the manufacturer's are slowly getting pretty damn close....and, in fact, some of the NEW modelling 'tones' are better than the old tube sounds - IMHO...

Just coz it ain't tube tecvhnology....doesn't mean that something new can't sound better or great!!!

Let's start thinking "outside the box" shall WE

I've heard some pretty good "tone" samples lately from amp modelling units.....ie: the new Rocktron Replitone MP ,and the Sans Amp GT2 - that sound as good as any "tube" amp I'vce heard....

I think some folks just get STUCK in the idea that "tube" amps HAVE to sound better....which of course is rather short-sighted...

It's ALL a matter of personal TASTE anyways..in the future guitarists will use great new technologies, and only read about old fashioned "tube" sounds in history books....they prolly won't even like the tube sounds

Just ME 2 cents worth...

KEV

 

[Speeddemon]

I've heard some pretty good "tone" samples lately from amp modelling units.....ie: the new Rocktron Replitone MP ,and the Sans Amp GT2 - that sound as good as any "tube" amp I'vce heard....

So you HAVEN'T heard any good tones from a certain Genesis 3?

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1875&alid=-1
check out "Lightning Warrior", my newest 80's hairmetal tune!

 

[Kevzmusic]

Hey Speedo,

How don't go cryin' on me now - will ya

Yes, some of those G# samples of yours sounded pretty good....

BUT, as I've said a few times before - I personally found the G3 rock tones to be overly processed & raspy...ecept the 'clean" tones, which I agree are very good.....

However, the Replitone & GT2 are the best I've heard to date, along with the POD Pro......IMHO

Now, what about them DRUM LOOPS, where do I find some decent ones, coz all of mine (and I git 1,000's) are hal-ass, wimp crap......

I need good heavy rock drum loops - gimmee some

or else - LoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers,

KEV

 

[Speeddemon]

Kev, I don't use any drumloops either. It's just my ol Dr Rhythm 670. I really found a way to fatten up the snare, I mean, I really like the snare sound in "Lightning Warrior"... yeah, so it's got a lot of verb...it's an 80's song... DUH!
I sent it through my Tube Composer, then gave it a low boost in my recorder, added like 60% of Smooth Hall reverb and voila!

Kev, did you listen to Lightning Warrior yet?
Do you like it?

But sorry, can't help ya with the drumloops...
just buy a friggin drumcomputer! You want 80's rock sounds? I'll bet there are some Alesis SR16's on Ebay somewhere...

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Then let's clear up the myth one more time....

I can pick an ADAT track out next to a 3348 for freaking sure.

I can too... and which do you think will sound more accurate? (ie, closer to the original sound...)



And exactly WHAT are you arguing about??? Good digital has no sound... period. If you someone wants to use bad digital, then complain about the sound, then they are mis-informed, or clueless.... And if you believe a budget 4-track analog machine will outperform moderr 24-converters, you are also grossly misinformed, or clueless....

 

[pipelineaudio]

amp modeling is similar to mic modelling and such

you can model specific instantaneous sounds, but you cant model behaviour. This is why you see " accoustic mirror " yet not " compressor mirror"

an amp model is capable EASILY of making a similar waveform to a tube amp at any given moment in time but heres where it breaks down

without changing any settings on either device:
with the tube amp, hit the guitar harder, then softer...do the same with the modeling amp
compare the waves now

just use your ears there, and you will see a drastic difference
not saying better or worse, just WAY different

sPiCE models are getting close to being able to mimic behaviour, but the level adding circuitry necessary to get a guitar into spice's realm is kinda being a stumbling block

theres some fundamental differences electronically working here too.

A guitar looks to an electronic circuit as a continuously variable voltage source. Guitar current is kept pretty stable, while the voltage fluctuates wildly.

Tubes use a control voltage input to tell the output how much to pass. A guitar is a GREAT controller for a tube device

transistors are controlled by current
FET's are different but by being operated in the linear part of their transfer curve, while more dynamic than basic transistors, still dont change in behaviour much, just volume

hit a tube amp soft....your sound may come out clean...CERTAINLY quieter, hit it hard,itll probably distort more, maybe compress some

hit a transistor amp harder and softer and you only change the signal to noise ratio, unless you get to the nonlinear part of the transistor's tranfer curve, which makes nasty square waves...or good fuzz tones if youre into that

 

[jake-owa]

It seems to me that the debate here (if there is just ONE) is similar to so many debates in recording not to mention life itself. We often get polarized into believing it's a versus issue (republican or democrat, gas or electric, jesus or buddha) when it's just a matter of taste or what a specific situation calls for. While I love the debate I think we all realize there is no "better" answer.
I really dig amp modeling, especially at midnight, but nothing beats having your chest kicked in by a half stack. For writing or recreating a certain esoteric sound (without a multi-million $ budget) the POD and its ilk shine. And surely we can all draw a line to see which direction things are moving in. Digital will go in two directions, one will eventually simulate everything analog and another will achieve a perfection in fidelity that analog (by it's phisical limitations)will never reach. Even then there will be folks (like me) who will still prefer tape or tubes for other reasons.
So does digital have a sound? Not one sound, but many different "sounds". Some are good and some stink, but there is someone out there loving an old cassette 4 track and mixing crappy digital effects into their beloved music. I'm not about to tell him he's wrong.

 

[jake-owa]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Then let's clear up the myth one more time....

And exactly WHAT are you arguing about??? Good digital has no sound... period. If you someone wants to use bad digital, then complain about the sound, then they are mis-informed, or clueless.... And if you believe a budget 4-track analog machine will outperform moderr 24-converters, you are also grossly misinformed, or clueless....

HAH? I don't remember anyone saying any thing about a 4 track being better than 24 bit converters.

Blue Bear, do you know what a sony 3348 is?

 

[pipelineaudio]

"And exactly WHAT are you arguing about??? Good digital has no sound... period. If you someone wants to use bad digital, then complain about the sound, then they are mis-informed, or clueless.... And if you believe a budget 4-track analog machine will outperform moderr 24-converters, you are also grossly misinformed, or clueless...."

DUDE!!!! let me know where these "Good digital has no sound" converters are! Im dying for them...must be in some secret UBERMARKET...lets see I have heard Apogee AD8k's, Apogee AD24's rosetta, etc... DB Blue and Silvers, Mytek, Cranesong, Lucid, RME, RADAR Nyquist, and many many more...they all have a sound. What you put in is NOT what you get out...

I record all digital now, like I said, but Im not insane enough to say they have " no sound ". In fact this " sound" is initially very hard to work with if you are used to analog.

 

[jake-owa]

Ok, heres my clever analogy for the day. Which is better for killing, a gun or a knife? Well...if you are looking to kill a BEAR (heh) youd better go with a gun. but if you want to sneak up on me in the middle of the night you better opt for the knife. True, both can kill but one would be better than the other in certain situations. Of course many times both will work equaly well (killing an invalid) but there is no absolute answer.