A good technique to begin with?

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I-AM

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Hello Forum,

I am interested in recording vocals with my limited studio setup, and I am not so much as looking for a paticular sound, but a way to create my own sound.
I do not have a dedicated sound booth or vocal setup. I do not have a fancy mic, or pre-amp(soon, but I want to use what I have now).
I have an alesis compressor(which sucks!), Art dual 15 band eq, DOD digitech Vocal processor, mixer and some good software on my computer-not to mention lots a RAM.
Can anyone give me some ideas to work with, so that I can attempt to find my own sound.
R&B, RAP, Hip Hop type of music.
Thanks for any responses.
I-AM
 
Looks like all you need is a mike!! SM57/58 and you're away ;)

Cheers
John
 
Tried a couple of things this weekend.
One time I went from the Mic to DOD Votek to EQ to Compressor to mixer to computer (PANNED HARD LEFT AND PANNED HARD RIGHT-4 stereo). I hope that was understood.
Then I got really crazy with it and took two mics, hung one from the ceiling.
Again used the 2 tracks for stereo but added almost like a 3rd dimension with the mic hanging from the ceiling.
Pretty cool.
Any suggestions, let me know.
Peace, and I will look into those mics.
Oh by the way, what's first EQ or compressor?
 
Hmmm....

First - a single mic to a mixer channel panned left or right will not be stereo............. is the DOD a stereo processor? (if so, why bother recording it at all - simply record the mono mic signal and process with the DOD later...) If the DOD is a mic pre, then I understand your "stereo" description even less!

Second - I would chain MIC --> MIXER --> COMPUTER. Then *IF* the vocal talent has very uneven levels, patch in the compressor (use sparingly). I wouldn't add any EQ before playing with mic placement to try and get the sound you're looking for - EQ would be a last resort, and even then, only on mixdown. You *CAN* record with EQ if you need to, but you're stuck with the sound if you don't like the result!

Third - this stereo thing: you need 2 mics - you can experiment with placement to acheive a more "dimensional" sound, and once you establish your stereo field (between the 2 mics), you record each mic onto its own channel. You care about how they're panned only at mix-down when you decide how "wide" you want that stereo field to appear in the mix.

Hope this helps...

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
I was very unclear with my last response, I came from mic-into the DOD vocal effect unit-into compressor-from there I used a "Y" cable and went into EQ and out into mixer, lastly going into computer.
For the Dimensional sound, How would I record each channel to a single channel?
The only way I can think of is to have the individual go through the script twice

Thanks
 
Hmmm.... I'm not getting it....

1 mic -- Y-cable or not, will never be "stereo"

Stereo is a signal defined by a L+R component and a L-R component... or to put it simply; it is a 2-channel signal that defines an aural space surrounding a signal source (instrument, vocalist, etc...)

For example, if I wanted to capture a realistic grand piano sound (forget mic quality and actual placement techniques for the moment - I'm just trying to describe the background), you need to place 2 mics at 2 different locations around the piano, which represent the 2 directions your own ears would pick the instrument up from.

This would give you a 2-channel signal - some sound will be common to both channels, but some sound will only appear more in 1 channel than the other. If you pan these 2 signals left and right, you'll get a stereo image (an audio plane between your speakers). You can fake or simulate this to a degree using effects, but for true stereo, it starts with using 2 channels/2 mics/2 distinct placements to create that image.

This means you have to be able to record more than one track at a time. Without this capability, you're stuck with using effects at mixdown to simulate stereo. This isn't too bad - it's a very common thing to do....

You lost me talking about "running a script twice" - you'll need to explain that a bit more to me about what you're trying to do....

Bruce
 
Let me see if I understand what you're saying...

My guess is that the y cable is going into your computer soundcard (soundblaster?). You're panning so that your software records the close mic on one track and the ceiling mic on another. Soundcard mixer control is set to dual mono (recording left signal to one mono track and right signal to another). Start with the close mic and bring up the level of the ceiling mic for an effect similar to raising the wet/dry mix of a reverb effect?

Is this what you're doing? What you want to do? I used to do that before I had any effects to work with. I guess I should ask what kind of soundcard you're using, then perhaps, I can be of more help.
 
The Y cable thing confuses me - one source, split to 2 different "sends" does not give you 2 different signal sources!!!!!! :confused:

My brain hurts............

Oh... wait a minute... is your Y cable really a TRS (2-channel) type cable??? Then that makes sense (L/R side) signal sources.....

Bruce
 
Okay one more time.
1-Mic goes to DOD votek processor
2-Out from processor to compressor
3-out from compressor into eq
4-out from EQ using a y cable into 2 seperate tracks on my Tascam (panned hard left and hard right)
5-out from my tascam(I pretty much just use it as a mixer)
into soundcard.
Hope this helps and makes since.
 
OK... the setup you just describes is definitely NOT a stereo signal chain, so I really don't understand why you're bothering to use a Y cable at all, then panning left/right - the end result is 2 mono tracks, so you're really wasting a track needlessly.

If you want to add some stereo imaging you need 2 mics picking up your signal source. (Your close-mic/ceiling-mic concept is a reasonable experiment...) The signal of each mic must go to its own channel/track and there is NO Y-cable involved.

NOW...... the VoTec is not a stereo unit (I looked at the spec), so with your current setup, you're not equipped for a stereo recording at all........... If you WANT to go the stereo recording route, you'd need a dual-channel mic pre, and a matched pair of decent mics. The chain would then be left and right mic to each channel on the mic pre ---> mic pre out to 2 tracks on your computer (panned hard left/right). Add compression, EQ, and effects to taste once it's recorded.

If you aren't going the stereo route - then dump the Y-cable thing 'cos it's not giving anything.... but the signal chain you describe has a basic problem in that you are adding effects before adding any compression/EQ. On the other hand, since the effect processor is basically your mic pre, you don't have a choice. I think you'd be better off still buying a mic pre and not going thru the VoTec at all (save the effect for mix-down). I'd put the compressor and EQ in the chain, only if it's really needed.

Hope this helps....

Bruce :)
 
Sounds cool. WIll definately try this weekend.

"---> mic pre out to 2 tracks on your computer (panned hard left/right). Add compression, EQ, and effects to taste once it's recorded."

I am definately a novice at this stuff, but I like to learn, so I hope you don't mind the 20 question routine bvaleria and forum.
I am running Cool Edit pro, and I do have a full duplex soundcard, how would I get two independent tracks from eachother without having the signal seap into another track?
Can I pan them hard left and right- record, then extract each side independently and change the format to stereo?
ANOTHER bRAINBUSTER!
Thanx for your time
 
I agree with Bruce re. what constitues a stereo signal.

Food for thought: At the last minute I decided to record one of my band's concerts and set up a recorder, fully equipped to record up to eight tracks, however the best our soundman could come up with at such short notice was a stereo feed from the main board. I found out later this was a mono feed on two channels. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I ended up mixing the signal with just a smidgeon of reverb, just slightly different for each channel, panned hard left and right, and ended up with something on the CD which sounds "sort of" stereo. Well, what else could I do?

- Wil
 
live sound stereo

from what you describe there isn't much else you could do. live sound (depending on the venue and i'm assuming it was a small club) isn't stereo, there are just two PA speaker feeds
generically called right and left, and most of the time every signal goes to both sides equally. the only time this is not the case is if an amp is sitting on one side of the stage; that particular amp will then be turned down on it's respective pa speaker to varying degee.

all in all, though, if you liked the feeling/sound of the mono recording, keep it in mono. i would be hesitant of inflicting revertb on something just so it can be "stereo".
stereo is often times overrated, and often misunderstood. phil spector and brian wilson did everything in mono...and well, the results are obvious.
for cool stereo sound live, check out the flaming lips next time they come around...they have headphones that you can listen to the show in stereo with. it's pretty cool.
auerole.
 
If you record the 2 tracks, one panned hard right, one hard left and then extract and convert to stereo you will have 2 seperate tracks. They will have the exact same information on their left and right channel.

Since you are running one mic (which would be mono) into a mono effects processor (still mono) and then thorugh compression and eq (still mono) into a y cable does not make it stereo all of a sudden. It just takes your mono signla and sticks it onto both cables coming off the Y. You have the exact same signal panned left and right on the 2 tracks on your tascam. Having one track with no panning at all would be exactly the same. It is still mono. To get a stereo signal you need to place two mics (generally one to the left and one to the right) and run each one into a seperate channel on the mixer and pan hard left and right. The Y cable just duplicates your signal, doesn't make it stereo.
I don't see the need to have a stereo vocal. If you want a bigger sound you can try doubling. You could do that with your current equipment.
Hopefully this makes sense.

jake
 
Here's what I thought you were doing and possibily what you are attempting to describe.

Essentially this is just recording two sources at once as two mono signals. Close mic to mixer. Ceiling mic to mixer. If you want to run one of these through the fx, do it before the mixer.

Now the reason I thought you may be using a Y cable is to feed into a consumer soundcard that requires an 1/8" stereo miniplug like an SB. If this is indeed the kind of soundcard you're working with, it is necessary to pan the mixer channels left and right so that you do not record two channels of the same thing. In this case, left would carry your close mic vocal and right would carry your ceiling mic vocal. (oh did I mention that I've only used n-track which lets you choose a dual-mono setting rather than stereo? Can you do that in CEP?) The bottom line is that you can do this. Whether or not you wish to go to the trouble when you can achieve similar results with fx plug-ins is up to you.

I'm not too savvy with mouse mixing so I did this as an experimentation in having something of a stereo reverb effect on guitars. I don't really know if it would be worth your while for vocals.
 
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