A/D Converters

  • Thread starter Thread starter Superhuman
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When I can play one recording through one mixer and listen through the same monitors and switch back and forth between two converters and hear a distinct difference....i'd have to say "it's the converters". Been there, done that, Apogee Rosetta beat Delta 1010 rather clearly. Does that mean the 1010 is lousy, no, it's done some fairly good work, just not as good at the Apogee, and not nearly as expensive. The recording was of an accoustic guitar and it was a no brainer. An over compressed, distorted to the max metal song probably would not have been so clearly distinguisheable.
 
chessrock said:
We're talking consumer-grade stuff like Delta 1010, 1010LT, Echo Audiofire

Fella,

i've been reading your posts for a long while now, even ancient threads, etc. If you think the Echo Audiofire unit is consumer grade, you must be one hell of an esoteric recorder with millions invested. I'm probably twice your age, being retired for a while and all, but someone needs to say it in light of what you've written here throughout the years - you're kind of full of it, lighten up a bit, it's not a crusade.
 
Hey Creature, thanks for the feedback. You're certainly entitled to your opinions on my posts.

In kind, I suppose your posts are useful. Not that I particularly remember any of them. But I'm sure you've made many helpful contributions here, perhaps under a different username. Anyway, I'll try and keep in mind whatever point it was that you just tried to make in your post (and I'll pretend it made sense).

To NL5 : If you want to try doing a valid double-blind test, what you want to do is take a recording of some sort. I would recommend a comercial CD or something you're very familiar with. And just record it on to your system using each of the converters you're trying to test. Make sure that all connections are ideal from an impedence standpoint. Like if you're going from the RCA output of your CD player, make sure you're going RCA in to each converter. If you have to use any sort of adapters or anything on one converter, then make sure you're using the exact same adapters on the other one and that sort of thing. Any time you use adapters and what not, it can have an influence on the reproduction.

Now that you've got all that sorted out, you'll want to run a test tone in to each converter in order to make sure that levels are perfectly matched/calibrated (or at least as close to perfect as you can reasonably get it). Make sure you're recording on to the same software at the same bit-depth and sample rate. Now you're ready to record the samples. After you've got two separate files of the material recorded, you'll want to chop them down to the exact same length. If you've got 1.54 seconds of silence before sample A starts, then make sure you've got 1.54 seconds of silence before sample B starts, and so on. Basically you want to eliminate any ques that might allow you to distinguish one sample from the other.

When that's done, you'll need to have someone help you out with the rest. Your buddy will need to play each sample for you, one after the other, and keep record of which was which. Have him repeat this several times, but vary / randomize the order. As a control, you can also tell him/her play the same sample twice in a few instances, just to make things interesting. :D

At the end of the test, if you've successfully identified each sample correctly, then congratulations. You've just successfully identified the samples in a valid listening test. And you've probably got better ears than I do, because I didn't fare nearly as well in a formal test that I recently got roped in to volunteering for. :D Granted, it was just one test, and it's perfectly reasonable that my ears could have been shot that day, but I was very surprized at how poor I was at identifying differences in converters. I thought it would be night and day, but I really had to struggle and split hairs. And my answers weren't nearly consistant enough for me to conclude that I can consistantly hear a meaningful difference.


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creatureofhabit said:
but someone needs to say it in light of what you've written here throughout the years - you're kind of full of it, lighten up a bit, it's not a crusade.

There is a prophet amongst us.
 
That would be a good point, Big Ray. If you actually cared what I had to say, which you've already pointed out you don't. And provided you took things personally ... which, again, you obviously don't. :D

Don't you have another "I love DAV" thread to start somewhere? Shoo.
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if you conducted the test on a boombox it might have been easier than on studio speakers which I am assuming you used. it makes no sense but that's what I've noticed.
 
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But of course, Falken. I wouldn't trust any critical listening test to anything but boombox speakers. :D But that's only if I don't have any computer speakers handy (preferably the kind built in to a laptop).

:rolleyes:
 
Chess - I'm not sure your test is totally valid either. Rerecording an already digitized CD will be going too easy in the A/D convertors under test. They won't have to rely on the quality of their bandwidth filters and stuff near as much since the audio has already been chopped to 44.1k by a previous A/D.
Now if someone were to split a mic signal to two setups with different A/D convertors, all else equal, to do an acoustic recording of some sort -- I would love to hear your impressions then. Perhaps you would have an easier time sorting out good vs. bad?

I could be full of it, but these are just my thoughts on it.
 
chessrock said:
To NL5 : If you want to try doing a valid double-blind test, what you want to do is take a recording of some sort. I would recommend a comercial CD or something you're very familiar with. And just record it on to your system using each of the converters you're trying to test. Make sure that all connections are ideal from an impedence standpoint. Like if you're going from the RCA output of your CD player, make sure you're going RCA in to each converter. If you have to use any sort of adapters or anything on one converter, then make sure you're using the exact same adapters on the other one and that sort of thing. Any time you use adapters and what not, it can have an influence on the reproduction.

Now that you've got all that sorted out, you'll want to run a test tone in to each converter in order to make sure that levels are perfectly matched/calibrated (or at least as close to perfect as you can reasonably get it). Make sure you're recording on to the same software at the same bit-depth and sample rate. Now you're ready to record the samples. After you've got two separate files of the material recorded, you'll want to chop them down to the exact same length. If you've got 1.54 seconds of silence before sample A starts, then make sure you've got 1.54 seconds of silence before sample B starts, and so on. Basically you want to eliminate any ques that might allow you to distinguish one sample from the other.

When that's done, you'll need to have someone help you out with the rest. Your buddy will need to play each sample for you, one after the other, and keep record of which was which. Have him repeat this several times, but vary / randomize the order. As a control, you can also tell him/her play the same sample twice in a few instances, just to make things interesting. :D


I was more wondering about your double blind test you did, can you please explain that for me.

Also, wouldn't the above test be skewed by the crappy converters found in most CD players? And, are you playing back all the samples thru the same converter, or thru the converter that was used to record each of them?

Thanks!
 
chessrock said:
But of course, Falken. I wouldn't trust any critical listening test to anything but boombox speakers. :D But that's only if I don't have any computer speakers handy (preferably the kind built in to a laptop).

:rolleyes:

I know lol. but think about it...maybe the world class DA and/or monitors are making up for deficiences that your $50 boombox is going to show in full. is this just nuts or could there be some truth? you know, like translation, or something.
 
FALKEN said:
I know lol. but think about it...maybe the world class DA and/or monitors are making up for deficiences that your $50 boombox is going to show in full. is this just nuts ...

If you're saying that your boombox is going to be more revealing than world class d/a and monitors ... then I'd really like to know where you got your boom box. :D I'll trade ya something' for it. How about an ice cream cone. Hmmm. You like ice cream?

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chessrock said:
Hey Creature, thanks for the feedback. You're certainly entitled to your opinions on my posts.

In kind, I suppose your posts are useful. Not that I particularly remember any of them. But I'm sure you've made many helpful contributions here, perhaps under a different username. Anyway, I'll try and keep in mind whatever point it was that you just tried to make in your post (and I'll pretend it made sense).

No mate, it's your attitude, condescending and patronizing, even when you offer help, i have read 3 year old threads and it's always the same. You do as you please, but I've been doing this for far longer than you, and the piece of gear you took a shot at is currently on my rack (actually 2 of them for 24 i/o), and if this matters to anyone, it's at least the same quality (despite sounding different) than the Multiface MKII i've had during the last year. If you consider RME entry level, then by all means, but i couldn't let this one roll mate, as i'm also pretty sure you never even heard an Audiofire before, am i right?

Again, you do as you please, but speaking to folks from above, especially 17 year old kids asking questions ain't a good pointer, says a lot actually.
 
creatureofhabit said:
No mate, it's your attitude, condescending and patronizing, even when you offer help, i have read 3 year old threads and it's always the same. You do as you please, but I've been doing this for far longer than you, and the piece of gear you took a shot at is currently on my rack (actually 2 of them for 24 i/o), and if this matters to anyone, it's at least the same quality (despite sounding different) than the Multiface MKII i've had during the last year. If you consider RME entry level, then by all means, but i couldn't let this one roll mate, as i'm also pretty sure you never even heard an Audiofire before, am i right?


Yes, I am familiar with the Audiofire ... which is why I specifically mentioned it as being one of the interfaces used in the comparison I was just talking about 10 posts ago. :D In fact, I own an Audiofire as the main interface for my home studio. (I'm almost as much of a poster child for Echo as Big Ray is for his DAV mic pre that he puts under his pillow at night).

Using your keen observation skills, you might have noticed that ... the whole point of my rant was that I had one hell of a time trying to distinguish it's conversion quality from an Apogee and a Lucid. A point I hope was not lost on those who were able to put my post in to the proper context / perspective.

Love your posts, man (yawn). :rolleyes: Have a nice day.
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chessrock said:
Love your posts, man (yawn). :rolleyes: Have a nice day.
.

Right or wrong, my point still stands, and you proove it everytime you reply to a post.
 
chessrock said:
And the hits just keep on coming, don't they?

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Indeed mate, just search your name and ask whomever has been here for 3/4 years wether or not you have an attitude problem along with some patronizing "knowledge" always ready to come out and present its holy glory.

Cheers, anytime.
 
Creature,

I'm very selective, and have a high level of awareness towards those that I'm a jerk to.

And I can't help it. I just know when I'm in the presence of a turd. I can read it in the way they post ... the way they phrase things ... how their sentences are structured, etc. etc. etc.

Some people you never see me criticize, and there's a very good reason for that. People who are here for the right reasons will get nothing but my respect and courtesy. In fact, here's a little self-test, which you can administer that will help you determine whether or not you're a turd; Ask yourself this question: Is Chessrock generally nice and respectful to you? If the answer to that is "yes," then congratulations. There's a high likelihood that you're not a turd.

On the other hand, if that answer is "no," then it might be time to face the very real possibility that you might be a turd. Unless you're Southside Glen, of course; I just like to pick on him because it's fun and because he's from the south side. :D

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Chess doesn't even know I'm alive :(


chessrock said:
Creature,

I'm very selective, and have a high level of awareness towards those that I'm a jerk to.

And I can't help it. I just know when I'm in the presence of a turd. I can read it in the way they post ... the way they phrase things ... how their sentences are structured, etc. etc. etc.

Some people you never see me criticize, and there's a very good reason for that. People who are here for the right reasons will get nothing but my respect and courtesy. In fact, here's a little self-test, which you can administer that will help you determine whether or not you're a turd; Ask yourself this question: Is Chessrock generally nice and respectful to you? If the answer to that is "yes," then congratulations. There's a high likelihood that you're not a turd.

On the other hand, if that answer is "no," then it might be time to face the very real possibility that you might be a turd. Unless you're Southside Glen, of course; I just like to pick on him because it's fun and because he's from the south side. :D

.
 
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