4 track cassette only good for demos, while real records are made on 2" Studer?

[Beck]

Some years back I've heard some truly professional sounding tracks off of a TASCAM 238, which is a cassette 8 track...

Yup, the 238 was pretty awesome. When I first heard TASCAM was coming out with it I had doubts. I thought 4 or maybe 6-track was the max for cassette. Then I got to try one out at a local shop. I couldn’t believe my ears… it sounded great.

I hear the term Lo-Fi tossed around a lot. When I talk about the successful cassette and narrow-track reel products I’m familiar with I’m not thinking Lo-Fi at all. I know people use the term differently… some in a derogatory way and some in describing a more vintage sound that’s opposite of the perceived clean (cold) sound of digital. I think of many digital formats as Lo-Fi in a negative way and I avoid them because of their undesirable artifacts.

Cassette was/is able to deliver for several reasons:

1. Advancements in head design pioneered by TASCAM.
2. The introduction of and improvements in noise reduction
3. Improved tape formulations (CrO2 and smaller particles)
4. Better tape handling/transport systems

These technologies allowed manufacturers to scale-down analog from traditional models; something they couldn’t do before if they wanted to. After all, God did not ordain 2” tape formats. It just happened that way. It could have been 3” or 4” or 2-ft width tape with recording heads weighing 50 pounds.

The downside to cassette:

Technology allowed reducing analog to narrower tracks, but unfortunately dust particles, hair, dandruff and fingerprints are still the same size. An eyelash can cause an audible dropout on a cassette deck, but would not disrupt a wider track machine. Same for any defects in the tape… pops, clicks and dropouts are more common with cassette multi-track.

The tolerances are very tight. Many people that are snapping up vintage machines on eBay have never really heard what they can do because the machines are no longer within spec. A 20-year-old 246 is not necessarily the same as buying a new one in 1987 (Unless it’s the one I have, which has been meticulously maintained and under a dust cover when not in use since 1987.)

There are too many eBay specials out there that smell like cigarette smoke and are full of dog hair, not to mention wobbly pinch rollers, loose drive belts and worn or misaligned heads. Of course they sound like crap, so many newbies wonder what all the fuss over these classic beauties is all about.

 

[drstawl]

Nop. I defined what actually definds an applicability.
BTW, if you wish to play a REAL mind game, you should of say:
"It must get awfully frustrating trying to record with no equipment."
/later

I never suggested attempting to record with no equipment.

You suggested that the minimum requirement is two TS cables.

I won't even ask where you insert the plugs.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I won't even ask where you insert the plugs.

why not?
I insert plugs into jacks.
Clear question - clear answer.

I never suggested ...

You suggested ...

I know you did not suggest. Neither did I.
**********
Speaking of suggestions. Let me suggest something.
HERE:

1. Entery level package: one 1/4" TS cable.
2. Junior Consumer package: two 1/4" TS cables.
3. Novice Consumer package: four 1/4" TS cables.
4. Senior Consumer package: eight 1/4" TS cables.
5. Semi-Pro Entering level package: twelve 1/4" TS cables.
6. Semi-Pro Delux Package: sixteen 1/4" TS cables.
7. Pro Every Day Package: thirty two 1/4" TS cables.
8. Pro World Class Package: sixty four 1/4" TS cables.
9. Pro Universal Platinum Package: one hundred and twenty eight 1/4" TS cables.
10. For higher level of products and/or custom request, please, contact your local dealer.
*************

See the lines yet?

Whether you do or you don't, I'd say, it's time to move up to the next "level" aka "upgrade", because I can't deal with this any longer.
I did my best.

/respects anyway,
/later

 

[Dr ZEE]

Technology allowed reducing analog to narrower tracks, but unfortunately dust particles, hair, dandruff and fingerprints are still the same size.

I love this.
Great line ... from amazon.com bestseller "Suicide. (Lethal Negative Feedback In Analog Micrology)" by Dr Beck, PhD.

*********
great post!

 

[cjacek]

Level-ranges of products is an essential marketing tool, NOT a collection of application guides.


Confusing application guides with marketing is a common practice of marketing professionals.

Am I the only one who appreciates this? Good stuff Mike.

 

[cjacek]

Yup, the 238 was pretty awesome. When I first heard TASCAM was coming out with it I had doubts. I thought 4 or maybe 6-track was the max for cassette. Then I got to try one out at a local shop. I couldn’t believe my ears… it sounded great.

Yeah, same here, if I would not have heard it, I would not have believed it, the rather surprising good sound coming from a truly tiny format.

I hear the term Lo-Fi tossed around a lot. When I talk about the successful cassette and narrow-track reel products I’m familiar with I’m not thinking Lo-Fi at all. I know people use the term differently… some in a derogatory way and some in describing a more vintage sound that’s opposite of the perceived clean (cold) sound of digital. I think of many digital formats as Lo-Fi in a negative way and I avoid them because of their undesirable artifacts.

Yeah, the term "low-fi".. I forgot about that term, which indeed gets tossed around quite a bit. Problem is that such terms, including the ones in my opening post, have so much gray area that interpretation always screws things up. No one is truly correct.

Cassette was/is able to deliver for several reasons:

1. Advancements in head design pioneered by TASCAM.
2. The introduction of and improvements in noise reduction
3. Improved tape formulations (CrO2 and smaller particles)
4. Better tape handling/transport systems

These technologies allowed manufacturers to scale-down analog from traditional models; something they couldn’t do before if they wanted to.

Excellent points. In fact (taken from TASCAM's history):

(The title track from the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band album, was used for comparison at TASCAM's 4 track Portastudio demonstration. The original Beatles album was recorded on 2 AMPEX 4 track recorders.) Spectators were amazed that the Portastudio, in its seemingly small and unassuming package, could faithfully reproduce each of the 4 tracks, separately or together.
​

The downside to cassette:

Technology allowed reducing analog to narrower tracks, but unfortunately dust particles, hair, dandruff and fingerprints are still the same size. An eyelash can cause an audible dropout on a cassette deck, but would not disrupt a wider track machine. Same for any defects in the tape… pops, clicks and dropouts are more common with cassette multi-track.

The tolerances are very tight. Many people that are snapping up vintage machines on eBay have never really heard what they can do because the machines are no longer within spec. A 20-year-old 246 is not necessarily the same as buying a new one in 1987 (Unless it’s the one I have, which has been meticulously maintained and under a dust cover when not in use since 1987.)

There are too many eBay specials out there that smell like cigarette smoke and are full of dog hair, not to mention wobbly pinch rollers, loose drive belts and worn or misaligned heads. Of course they sound like crap, so many newbies wonder what all the fuss over these classic beauties is all about.

Again, excellent points, Tim, these "tight tolerances" (and those "ebay specials") probably being one of the most important downsides to cassette based studios.

 

[drstawl]

why not?
I insert plugs into jacks.
Clear question - clear answer.

Clearly, just clear avoidance of any reasoning behind your flippant assertions.

Why Not?

Because you have only plugs, no jacks.

And you can insert them into any available orefice; no guarantee that any recording will take place.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Because you have only plugs, no jacks.

I do have jacks. When it came to the point of inserting plugs I've purchased jacks.
The one who does not have any jacks is not me. The one who does not have any jacks is the guy who has purchased Pro Universal Platinum Package and still scratching his head, trying to firgure out: "What's wrong with the picture??? ... It's is Pro and it is Universal, and still no go. "
The key point is that I've purchased just The Plugs to plug them into, and then just The Jacks to plug into them (no lines, no ranges, no levels!!!!).
*********
If you still missing the pint of this thread's theme, I simply can't do a thing about it, nor I really care, neither do you, I've figured.
*********
Repost the analogy:
1. Entery level package: one 1/4" TS cable.
2. Junior Consumer package: two 1/4" TS cables.
3. Novice Consumer package: four 1/4" TS cables.
4. Senior Consumer package: eight 1/4" TS cables.
5. Semi-Pro Entering level package: twelve 1/4" TS cables.
6. Semi-Pro Delux Package: sixteen 1/4" TS cables.
7. Pro Every Day Package: thirty two 1/4" TS cables.
8. Pro World Class Package: sixty four 1/4" TS cables.
9. Pro Universal Platinum Package: one hundred and twenty eight 1/4" TS cables.
10. For higher level of products and/or custom request, please, contact your local dealer.
*************
Roughly, the main point Daniel was making here (in respect to my purposely simplified and "designed" as grotesque analogy) is this:
"In almost every situation, whether it be from a book, forum or another person, you often get comments that to achieve "professional" result you must use a "Pro World Class Package" or higher. I've used in my studio sixty four "Entery level packages" and the result is excellent and ready for "commercial release".
Wouldn’t a top audio producer, surrounded by competent musicians, with the best studio space available, be able to achieve the same great result as I did using some of the so called “Entery level packages”?
What are your thoughts?"
Thoughts:
The Plugs do exist. The plugs can be plugged. That's all one need and MUST know.
The Product Level-Ranges and "lines" in between them DO NOT exist. It is just a notion that was(is being) introduced with a purpose, the nothion which makes its way into the areas where it does not belong within the community of minds.
It's just the way it is.
BTW, "consumer ignorance" IS NOT a pejorative term. Consumer Ignorance is an essence of "the plot" (trading society, that is). Every individual is an "ignorant consumer". Only small groups of individuals within small areas are not "ignorant consumers". If it was not that way, then there would be no trade.

blah blah

/later

 

[drstawl]

I do have jacks.

Then why the secrecy regarding your minimum setup to achieve professional results? So now you are willing to admit you have two cables and an unnamed number of jacks. That still seems to fall short of the equipment required to create a recording, regardless of the quality of said recording.

As for your Fitz rant about marketing- you have the cart before the horse.

The actual properties of any signal chain exist on their own, in a vacuum.

Marketers merely seek to sell products to as many customers as they can muster.

Whatever spin is placed on the facts regarding any particular piece of equipment has no bearing on product usefulness in any particular application.

 

[FALKEN]

i think it all depends on perspective. people on some forums completely trash preamps costing well over $1,000 per channel, mics in the $2k range.... even certain 2" decks because they don't sound as good as some other 2" deck they heard one time. obviously if your hangout is the homerecording.com analog forum you are going to be very fond of cassette multitrackers...doesn't this go without saying? nobodys right or wrong its all opinions...and many people defend and recommend the gear they have even if they haven't tried anything else. like they'll go on forums and constantly recommend one piece of gear for every application, cuz its the only piece of gear they have. Happens all the time on here in the mic forum and the rack. I think after years of doing this I have the skills to rock any format. Of course I would prefer a casette 4 track to tracking or mixing digitally.... that's just my opinion. Is anyone who says I'm crazy wrong? Of course not, because I can see where they're coming from, and that's just their opinion. anyway my point is that a lot of people are on the quest for their "perfect sound", and the smaller machines aren't doing it for them. it doesn't mean they're wrong, they're just jerks for saying that you are.

 

[Dr ZEE]

you have the cart...

Yep. I've got one. It moves quite well on its own. Thanks, God. Not everyone is lucky as I happen to be.
**********

As for your Fitz rant......

As for my rant:
My "rant" is NOT addressed to unlucky ones. I let the unlucky ones be as they are - being pulled by the horses along provided guidelines and milestones.

Sorry, man, I can not keep responding to your "arguments". I don't really argue with you. There's no point to it, since you refuse to check your "patchbay" condition.

/respects

 

[drstawl]

There's no point to it, since you refuse to check your "patchbay" condition.

/respects

That's one piece of equipment I don't own.

I run my cables direct.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I run my cables direct.

Sorry to hear that. Then there's nothing else to blame. The case is hopeless.

/later

 

[drstawl]

Sorry to hear that. Then there's nothing else to blame. The case is hopeless.

/later

So now you are going to tell me that adding unnecessary connections to a signal chain will produce better results than the most direct path?

If you have any more misinformation to provide please choose the CAVE rather than the Analog Forum.

I've already gotten personal complaints for trying to get you to produce a sensible post.

 

[Dr ZEE]

So now you are going to tell me that adding unnecessary connections to a signal chain will produce better results than the most direct path.

Nop. I am not going to tell you anything.
I have pointed out (for the lucky ones, of course! ), that in the case when disconnection is clearly evident, it may be a good time to check the connecting device(s) for connectivity. If there's no such device, then there's nothing to check, and the problem must be in the "cart", but that's beyond my jurisdiction, so there's nothing I can do.
*********

misinformation to provide...

"Provided misinformation" is one of my specialties. My method to combat it is: stimulating personal natural resources, that support development of certain qualities, sach as self-confidence, persistence, obility to condact independent analysis etc.

*****

If you have any ...to provide ...
... trying to get you to produce ....

I don not produce anything to provide. Who hired me?

And, btw, Mr. drstaw, what's your occupation here?

AND! btw, Mr. drstaw, YOU ARE GETTING ON MY NERVE!
Really, I was trying to be as nice to you as possible. I've tried again and again to establish a connection with your "cart". All attempts have failed. Everything has its limit.
If your cart's limitations prevent you from comprehending a single shred of my posts, then just ignore them and move on along your passage. Life is easy: lines are there, stones are marked, wind is cool, dollar is green - what else do you need for a happy evening.???

ahrghhhhhhhh, forget about it.


/later

 

[evm1024]

Ah...

I never suggested attempting to record with no equipment.

You suggested that the minimum requirement is two TS cables.

I won't even ask where you insert the plugs.

Ah, but you did. You suggested trying to record with equipment that is incapable of recording.

A single TS cable cannot produce a recording of any level pro or not.

Gotta stay apples to apples.

Regards

 

[cjacek]

drstawl: I think you completely lost the meaning behind Dr. Zee's posts. A lot of the stuff Doc writes about, especially in discusion type posts, is not meant to be taken literally. When you get past that, a whole world of possibilities opens up...

 

[cjacek]

Perhaps I'm rephrasing what already has been said but it all comes down to the following: Be it connecting cables, microphones, outboard gear or recorders / mixers, there is simply not a relationship or partnership between the so called "professional" version of these and "professional" results obtained and my definition for "pro", in this context, is music which is good enough to be released commercially. It is simply a fallacy to believe otherwise. That by using "pro" gear, you'll obtain "pro" results, is a marketing ploy, created first and people blindly bought into it all. In that sense, it wasn't the consumers who created the demand and companies catered to them but rather the companies created the demand and consumers did what they do best - consume.

 

[FALKEN]

Perhaps I'm rephrasing what already has been said but it all comes down to the following: Be it connecting cables, microphones, outboard gear or recorders / mixers, there is simply not a relationship or partnership between the so called "professional" version of these and "professional" results obtained and my definition for "pro", in this context, is music which is good enough to be released commercially. It is simply a fallacy to believe otherwise. That by using "pro" gear, you'll obtain "pro" results, is a marketing ploy, created first and people blindly bought into it all. In that sense, it wasn't the consumers who created the demand and companies catered to them but rather the companies created the demand and consumers did what they do best - consume.

cjacek,

i dont think anyone would argue that you can't get pro results with a casette 4-track. I think what makes the 4-track "not pro" is that even if you built the best studio possible, with amazing outboard, amazing acoustics, amazing monitoring, amazing mics, great engineer, and a casette 4-track for tracking to, you wouldn't be able to charge $500 per day or whatever it is these guys charge to stay in business. so its not pro because you wouldn't realistically be able to use it in a professional environment and stay in business. let's be realistic. Is duane wade going to show up to the NBA finals wearing flip flops? You get the best gear you can in a pro environment because you have to. I mean, if you really wanted to you could start using those machines in a pro environment..what's stopping you?

 

[drstawl]

It wasn't a comparison.

They were endpoints of a range of equipment.

Just a note.

The Studer has been sold.