3 practice amps to gig with?

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I mean no disrespect to any sound men. However, in the words of Gump...you never know what you're gonna get. I've played clubs where the sound man had no clue about what his job was. I've played where they told me to turn down, and then I couldn't hear my rig on stage, or in the monitors. I've seen some sound guys that cop an attitude as soon as you ask for something. Gotten many responses like "just play, I know my job!". On the flip side, I've seen many, many good sound men, too. I don't like to leave it to chance, because they ALL think they are good, but fact is....some of them are assholes, and some just simply suck at what they do. Like I said, never know what you are going to get. Again....the only thing that is really in a performers control is the sound, and volume of his rig on stage. My take: This is my rig, and the volume I need to hear it on stage...the sound mans job is to mic it, and make it sound good. My stage volume should make no difference.

As for the above post:

1. Tube tone doesn't count for squat? Total bull. "use the amp that LOOKS most impressive"? You're kidding, right?

2. There is the attitude I refer to.
Performer: "Hey, can you run off my pedal?"
Sound man "How do I know you aren't some "yahoo" that doesn't know what he is doing?"
Sorry, but yes I can blame them.

Trust the sound man, but it doesn't sound like they trust the performer. To say that bands give sound men a lot more grief than sound men give bands is also bull, and spoken like a true soundman. I trust them to make it sound good in front of the stage, but not on it. Worst thing that can happen is for some guitar player to start screaming in his mic "I can't hear myself" during the show. I've had soundmen drop my guitar completely out of the mix because I refused to turn my amp down to where it couldn't be heard on stage, and it wasn't coming through the monitors. His reply "you shouldn't need to hear yourself, you should know your part without having to hear what you are playing.".

Again, I say that 99% of the time, when I played clubs, the only thing in the stage monitors was vocals, and that is actually the way it should be on a small stage.
 
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Toker41 said:
I mean no disrespect to any sound men. However, in the words of Gump...you never know what you're gonna get. I've played clubs where the sound man had no clue about what his job was. I've played where they told me to turn down, and then I couldn't hear my rig on stage, or in the monitors. I've seen some sound guys that cop an attitude as soon as you ask for something. Gotten many responses like "just play, I know my job!". On the flip side, I've seen many, many good sound men, too. I don't like to leave it to chance, because they ALL think they are good, but fact is....some of them are assholes, and some just simply suck at what they do. Like I said, never know what you are going to get. Again....the only thing that is really in a performers control is the sound, and volume of his rig on stage. My take: This is my rig, and the volume I need to hear it on stage...the sound mans job is to mic it, and make it sound good. My stage volume should make no difference.
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it makes a big difference at a venue that has to comply with the Citys noise ordinance or if you want to hear your singer through the mains.
if you have your rig turned up louder than what is coming out of the main mix then you are just going to drown every one else out and pretty much muddy up the rest of the sound.
the ideal stage level is 80 to 85 decibels that way the main mix maxed out at 105 to 110 decibels is dominant over the stage level. anything louder than 105 to 110 decibels is unpleasant and can hurt your ears.

I suspect you would be a nightmare to EQ due to the simple fact that you would be unwilling to turn down when asked.

I have to deal with a guy just like that on a weekly basis and normally what happens is I take him just about completely out of the main mix in order that every one else can be heard.
EDITNote: ^I wrote this last part of my reply before you edited your post^

and the reason you were turned down is exactly for the reason i mentioned above. There is such a thing as having the stage volume too damn loud in order to make the whole mix sound as good as it possibly can.

it is apparent you know totally nothing about sound reinforcement and that is exactly the reason we call you fuckers guitards

and yes the sound man takes a whole lot more shit from both the band and the venue owner when the sound is for shit because the band don't want to cooperate with the sound tech.
 
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stevieb said:
Not too many live sound men in this thread, it appears...

Forget stereo. 99% of all shows are mono to the house.

Forget about power. Go thru the board and trust the soundman. His job is to make you sound your best- that's how they (we) build our reputation and get gigs. As mentioned above, bands give soundmen about ten times more grief than soundmen give bands.

What to do:
1. ASK the soundman to either tap off one of the outputs from your RP80, and you tap off the other to your amp. Do NOT use any stereo effects, use mono versions. Use the amp that LOOKS the most impressive- tube tone does not count for SQUAT, live- NO ONE will hear all the sweetness that tubes give you, nor care. Modern SS amps have all the sweetness that will get thru. Your amp will serve as your personal monitor, that you can turn up or down as you wish- for all others hearing you (band mates, audience) the SM will handle that.

2. The SM may not want to tap off your RP-80- some are touchy about that. You can hardly blame them- they are responsible for the health of the house system, and they don't know for sure that your "line" out is REALLY sending a signal at the right level- and probably all SM can tell you horror stories of some yahoo guitarist deciding, mid-show, that they want to be REALLY heard, so they unplug the cable from line-out and plug it into... SPEAKER out. Instant blown mixing boards or more. Thus, he many say, "I'm gonna mic your amp." End of story.

One more thing:

TRUST THE SOUNDMAN. (Okay, so it IS a repeat. It bares repeating.)
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as a musician and a sound man I agree with this post 100%
 
Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

I always feel its a real divide of approaches when these kind of conversations turn up. Musicians can sometimes very arty and need everything perfect (I want more mid-mid-highs in the backup vocals or I won't perform....) and sound guys can sometimes get very technically anal (I want the mark II of that effects unit or I won't do the gig...). We are both guilty. I really dislike the whole "its your fault" attitude.

The problem occurs when you look at the flow of money. Sound engineers are easier to replace than lead singers. And I am a sound engineer, not a lead singer saying that... its a shame
 
We are getting along. It's just s friendly discussion. At least on my end.




I never said anything about playing "too loud". I merely suggested that I need a certain stage volume in order to hear my amp. You assume too much. However, thank you for proving my point about the attitude.

BTW...I always used 50 watt amps (Boogies), and usually had the volume around 2 1/2. I don't think that's asking for much.

I fully understand about city sound ordnances. I also strongly feel that clubs that have to have the bands so low that they have to take a damn meter to it, shouldn't be having bands playing there. Simply not a good idea, and never goes well. If a 100 watt amp is too loud, then it's not the right place for the club.
 
There are good and bad sound men, and there are good and bad bands. When both are good, everyone gets along and the audience reaps the benefits. When both are bad, run for the exits! :D

Seriously, it doesn't do anyone any good for bands and sound guys to bash each other in general because of the few (or many) bad apples one has encountered. I play on both sides of that street myself, and I'm always trying to understand the POV of the guy wearing the other hat whenever I show up for a gig rather than assuming he's going to be an incompetent jerk because someone else was. Help me help you and vice versa.
 
I'll take it at face value that yours is a friendly discussion- but gotta say, it sure didn't (ahem!) SOUND like it... and please understand that it is that spirit of respectful discourse that I say:

I don't doubt there are SM who are either asshats, or clueless, or both. I've been in way over my head, at times, although I hope I was never an ass- and it is a scary place to be. You should consider: it's a skill, like playing guitar, and it takes years to perfect. Unfortunately, a SM can't woodshed much- only so much you can learn in your own bedroom or home studio, and then at least half of that goes out the window unless the hall is the same size and dims as your home studio- and how likely is THAT??

Toker41 said:
Gotten many responses like "just play, I know my job!".
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Well, turn it around:
SM: Hey, man, your B string is flat, and you are flubbing about every fourth note on your solos..."

How would you react to that?

Toker41 said:
1. Tube tone doesn't count for squat? Total bull. "use the amp that LOOKS most impressive"? You're kidding, right?
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No, not at all. For one thing, you edited my statement, thus taking it out of context. My original statement:
StevieB said:
...tube tone does not count for SQUAT, live
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As for looks- it's a SHOW, ferchrissake. All three of those amps will give the OP all the tone in a live show he needs- any extra, given all the ways tone can, and usually does, get lost, is just wasted. I've heard some very good, very seasoned guitarist say things like "One of the best touring amps for a road warrior is a... Peavey Bandit 112." What they all mean, and go on to say, is that in a live show, you don't need that last bit of tube tone you love so much in controlled situations like the (rehersal or recording) studio. Taken to the extreme, if the OP went on tour with that little Fender 15, which I assume to be a Frontman 15, he would get laughed at- the audience would have a tough time taking him serious, and the only way he could over come that was to be VERY good. Why take the chance? Looks count- and, (ahem) SIZE MATTERS.;):p


Toker41 said:
2. There is the attitude I refer to.
Performer: "Hey, can you run off my pedal?"
Sound man "How do I know you aren't some "yahoo" that doesn't know what he is doing?"
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I have never heard a SM reply like that. He's much more likely to say... "No." At the most, he might say "Nope, sorry, I don't know that pedal well enough to know for sure that it won't damage the board." No, scratch that- he's WAY too busy to explain himself. The answer is almost always just "No." EDIT: Actually, I would think that often the SM would say, "Sure, what jack do you need?"

Toker41 said:
Again, I say that 99% of the time, when I played clubs, the only thing in the stage monitors was vocals, and that is actually the way it should be on a small stage.
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By "small stage, I assume you mean small venue, too. Yes, I agree with you- this can work, and often should be done. But it takes a LOT of restraint on the part of all the band members, and I am afraid that often, some of them just do not possess that restraint (and I say that from my experience as a band member MUCH more than a SM.) The SM is in the best place, both inside his head AND inside the venue, to determine the balance.

I was gonna let the "I can't hear myself!" crack ride, but I can't: I have NEVER heard a performer say that, and if one did, HE'S the ass. I have heard them say "More vocals in the monitors, please," and the SM was happy to comply. And I have NEVER seen an audience get pissed about that.

But I won't comment on anything else- others here have already said it, and it carries more weight coming from someone other than myself. (Thanks, Roguetitan.)
 
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Please remember that I'm not saying all sound guys are deaf asswipes. You couldn't be more right about it being a skill. It's also something that some have, and some do not, no matter how hard they try, or believe they do. We were fortunate enough to hire an amazing sound tech, and crew when things started to move along.
I simply meant to point out that you never know, and it's not something I like to leave to chance. My job (back in the small club days) is to make sure my amp sounds good, and that I can hear myself. The sound guys job is to make it sound good to everyone in front of the stage (when it comes to guitars).

I still laugh when I think about some of the sound guys that would tell me "Turn off all your effects. I'll take care of the effects." Yeah, right. Like that was gonna happen. I'll turn off my Eventide so you can use your ART, and Quadraverb.:rolleyes:
 
Toker41 said:
As I stated, relying on the sound man to put the guitars through the stage monitors is risky. More often than not, I had no guitars through any stage monitors when I played smaller clubs before we had our own sound tech. They were mostly vocals only.
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It's risky only if the sound man is an incompetent clod that needs help wiping his ass, and has no business being behind a board. If you need guitar, tell the sound guy you need guitars in the monitors, and have him turn them up until ya get what ya want.
 
ggunn said:
There are good and bad sound men, and there are good and bad bands. When both are good, everyone gets along and the audience reaps the benefits. When both are bad, run for the exits! :D
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LOL EQ'ing a bad band is like trying to polish a turd you can polish it up but all you have is a shiny turd:D

LMAO that is going in my Sig:D
 
Moonrider said:
It's risky only if the sound man is an incompetent clod that needs help wiping his ass, and has no business being behind a board. If you need guitar, tell the sound guy you need guitars in the monitors, and have him turn them up until ya get what ya want.
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Problem is, you never know if you are getting a good sound guy, or a guy that shouldn't be behind a board. Especially in smaller clubs.
 
Toker41 said:
Problem is, you never know if you are getting a good sound guy, or a guy that shouldn't be behind a board. Especially in smaller clubs.
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I couldnt agree more with Toker41. There are way more BAD sound guys than the good ones. ALot of them have alot of technical ability, but the one thing they are missing is a good ear for a balanced mix and alot of them have lost their passion for doing the one thing that everyone involved in a show is there for...... Entertaining the crowd that is paying money to be there and presenting the establishment your working for the best sounding show you can with what you have to work with no matter what the band is like or the skill level. Its just the way it is.


So what does that mean to a musician? Adapt to your surroundings and have the gear you need to do a show and gather information for yourself before the show. Im sure you could call the club and find out who the sound man may be that night or go to the club between now and then and ask the sound guy or other musicians, "hey if I play here will I have a monitor mix I can put my guitar into?" Wouldnt that really be the smartest thing to do?

seems like you have time to do that.

I would bet if it is a night with multiple bands playing every 30 minutes or so, you may not get much of a sound check. No matter if you do your homework above it shouldnt be a issue. Make sure the sound tech knows you will need that even it it means he gives you a ballpark volume back through the monitors, something so you can hear yourself. EVen if its too loud you can turn your monitor away or angle it so its not blowing you away.


Also, I would be carefull with the volume on a 25 watt SS amp. Not for stage volume bleed or anything , but the sucker may howl like the wolves with feedback if you try to push it to much. set it close to you on stage and angle it up so the speaker is pointing straight at your head where you stand on stage. Maybe prop it up on a chair? so it is higher.

GOod luck, hope this helps
 
Good luck with the gig.

But before you decide what to buy, do some research into a couple of other amps. If your budget is that tight and you still need serious bang for the buck, with reliability and good service tossed in, look at

this Traynor YCS100

or

this Frenzel 5E3 Deluxe Plus
 
metalj said:
I couldnt agree more with Toker41. There are way more BAD sound guys than the good ones.

...go to the club between now and then and ask the sound guy or other musicians, "hey if I play here will I have a monitor mix I can put my guitar into?" Wouldnt that really be the smartest thing to do?

I would bet if it is a night with multiple bands playing every 30 minutes or so, you may not get much of a sound check...

Also, I would be carefull with the volume on a 25 watt SS amp. Not for stage volume bleed or anything , but the sucker may howl like the wolves with feedback if you try to push it to much. set it close to you on stage and angle it up so the speaker is pointing straight at your head where you stand on stage. Maybe prop it up on a chair? so it is higher.
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Some good advise. I try to make it a habit to contact bands ahead of time, via email, and ask them what they need for the show. No scrambling 30 min. before curtain to find something. When playing out, I try to initiate that same contact with the SM.

I greatly admire SM and stage crews that can break down one band, set up the next, and sound check in 15 minutes- and the next band sounds great on it's first down beat. Happens all the time, but I am just in awe of it.

And good advise on the little amps. Basic stuff that I do most all the time, but none of us had the presence of mind to bring it up.
 
metalj said:
I couldnt agree more with Toker41. There are way more BAD sound guys than the good ones.
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Wow, that's a sweeping generalization if I ever saw one. But OK, I'll stipulate that if you will admit that there are far more BAD guitar players (and bassists, drummers...) than good ones. Hmm... wait a minute, that's true, isn't it? Never mind. :D

But seriously, if a sound guy doesn't have much experience and can't get many gigs, he is far less likely to have the chops to do a good job at a gig, just like your garden variety musician. But the converse is just as true of sound men as musicians. Guitarist, bassist, sound tech, it doesn't matter; they are all contributors to the way a gig goes, and experience counts for a whole lot.

When I am wearing my musician hat, I can usually tell pretty quickly whether the sound guy is up to the task, and I adjust my approach accordingly, though I strive to always be civil. After all, you never know when you're going to run into that guy again; it could be 20 years later at an arena venue where you have no choice but to do what the stage folks tell you to do, and if you were abusive to the sound man, he will remember you.
 
Moonrider said:
It's risky only if the sound man is an incompetent clod that needs help wiping his ass, and has no business being behind a board. If you need guitar, tell the sound guy you need guitars in the monitors, and have him turn them up until ya get what ya want.
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Be careful asking for too much in the monitors. I'm a grizzled veteran of these questionable sound guys and the less stuff in the monitors, typically the better as vocals tend to get lost rather quickly and that's what you really need out of them. Also, find out how many submixes they can do, maybe only the drummer needs the guitar in her/his mix.
 
Man, this has been a great discussion (one asswipe aside). A wide range of views, and strong opinions based on experience from different musicians around the world on different levels. When one thinks about how computer technology has helped the local musicians, the internet, and online forums in particular, has to be the number one thing, even over recording software. What a great time to be a musician, or "home recorder".

Also, I'd like to state for the record, that I hold the highest respect for a good soundman, both live, and studio (there is a difference). It certainly does take, not only experience, and an acquired skill, but a good ear, and a natural "gift" (ability). Unfortunately, just like musicians, there are a lot that love it, and do it because so, but really don't have the skill, or ear. Often, the smaller club area is where the good, and bad begin. So, a band that has never played out, or one that travels without a sound crew, has no idea what to expect. When I was at that stage, I quickly learned not to leave it to chance, and to take control of the few things that I could.

Back to topic:

Make sure you let us know how the gig goes.

One way to "guess" on the stage volume problem:

Rehearse outside in the open with the drums elevated to waist level.


Also, I might have a Blue Voodoo head that I might be talked into seller relatively cheap. Out of all the Crate amps I've played, the Blue Voodoo was the only one I ever added to my collection, but at this point...I need some room, and I wouldn't mind helping you out at the same time. I certainly wouldn't put it up against my Boogies, but it's not a bad sounding amp. I re-tubed it a year ago, and haven't really played it much. I've also got a matching cab with V30's, but I wouldn't be into shipping that. Send me a PM if your buddy is interested.
 
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