2nd "Who We Are" track from last Thursday's recording session - "Happens Every Time"

[K-dub]

2nd "Who We Are" track from last Thursday's recording session - "Happens Every Time"



A wee bit of a rocker ...

As usual, any/all comments warmly appreciated.

Thanks!!

 

[Mickster]

Nice job....well done.....I like it. A few observations. In the intro one of the toms seems sort of out of place in a way. Too up front and on top. Seems to stop happening after the intro. Also......the vocals........seem a little veiled and slightly dark. They don't come thru the mix as well as they could and could use some presence / air to get some clarity and pop a bit better. The dynamics of the song are hurt a bit because of the veiled feel. They're there but held back.

And remember........I'm just giving my opinion..........and the song stands very well just as it is. And thanks for the listen !!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I basically agree with the above except I think it's the extremely "zingy" acoustic guitar (or is that an autoharp?) that's stepping on the top end of the vocal.

There's a lot of rumble in the bass. I would lighten it up a fair bit.

I'm not hearing much kick. It needs eq to bring out some click.

The snare sounds kind of small and midrange dominant. Boost something lower to give it authority, and maybe boost a high shelf to bring out the wires.

That's all pretty small stuff. It's a solid recording and mix for the most part.

 

[K-dub]

Nice job....well done.....I like it. A few observations. In the intro one of the toms seems sort of out of place in a way. Too up front and on top. Seems to stop happening after the intro. Also......the vocals........seem a little veiled and slightly dark. They don't come thru the mix as well as they could and could use some presence / air to get some clarity and pop a bit better. The dynamics of the song are hurt a bit because of the veiled feel. They're there but held back.

And remember........I'm just giving my opinion..........and the song stands very well just as it is. And thanks for the listen !!

Great ears, Mick. I wondered about the dark vocals myself. I'll look into it. Is the tom you're referring to coming out of the left side or the right side? Once I know that, I'll know which tom it is you mean.

Thanks for the ears and the thoughts!

 

[K-dub]

I basically agree with the above except I think it's the extremely "zingy" acoustic guitar (or is that an autoharp?) that's stepping on the top end of the vocal.

There's a lot of rumble in the bass. I would lighten it up a fair bit.

I'm not hearing much kick. It needs eq to bring out some click.

The snare sounds kind of small and midrange dominant. Boost something lower to give it authority, and maybe boost a high shelf to bring out the wires.

That's all pretty small stuff. It's a solid recording and mix for the most part.

It's a "hyped" acoustic. I've been going back and forth on how much ZING in the strum to push. I want it to be heard and drive the piece ... and this is a dense rock mix, but you're right ... it is very "zingy". I've got the 6k range up at +6db ... and I scooped most of the vocal frequencies out of the acoustic ... so they're not directly competing. It's the vocals themselves that have a "muted" quality to them. It may be one of the plugs I'm using that is lending that quality to them. I'll have to play with things ... more experimentation will reveal the underlying cause.


Thanks for the thoughts on the kick too. I've got it pushing the "down lows", but I wanted to keep the bass space clearer ... because Bill's performance on it is out of the park good. I may have pulled it back a little too far "out of the way". It's there ... but it's kicking in the 90 cycle range w/o much top end. I'll work on it more. Good notice.

Same goes for the snare thoughts ... I'll monkey with it.

Thanks bud -- appreciated!!

 

[Mickster]

Great ears, Mick. I wondered about the dark vocals myself. I'll look into it. Is the tom you're referring to coming out of the left side or the right side? Once I know that, I'll know which tom it is you mean.

Thanks for the ears and the thoughts!

It seems like there's one directly in the middle of the "sound stage" that stands out too much. The drum run goes from left to right and the tom in the middle of the run is too much on top of the mix. It's not a big deal but if you listen on cans.......it stands out.

 

[K-dub]

It seems like there's one directly in the middle of the "sound stage" that stands out too much. The drum run goes from left to right and the tom in the middle of the run is too much on top of the mix. It's not a big deal but if you listen on cans.......it stands out.

Ok -- the right rack tom. He hammers that hard in the opening ... but then barely touches it the rest of the song. I'll bring those opening hits down. Thanks Mick!

 

[K-dub]

Had some time to devote to handling mix issues this morning ... new mix is on above links.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That is sounding really good. The one thing that stands out is that the bass still has a lot of rumble.

It's really common for small mix spaces to cause trouble in the bass region, either by creating a buildup or a hole in the lows. I think you've got a missing chunk of LF at your mix position and you're compensating by mixing those frequencies too hot. To be honest I've had this exact trouble myself in many of the mix rooms I've used. The only solution for us is to take the mix around to as many playback systems as possible. Fortunately my living room is a surprisingly good sounding space and I can check my mixes here. If you post mp3 files using the site's upload feature (use the Go Advanced button) I can throw them into a DAW and an editor and give you more specific suggestions regarding eq.

 

[K-dub]

That is sounding really good. The one thing that stands out is that the bass still has a lot of rumble.

It's really common for small mix spaces to cause trouble in the bass region, either by creating a buildup or a hole in the lows. I think you've got a missing chunk of LF at your mix position and you're compensating by mixing those frequencies too hot. To be honest I've had this exact trouble myself in many of the mix rooms I've used. The only solution for us is to take the mix around to as many playback systems as possible. Fortunately my living room is a surprisingly good sounding space and I can check my mixes here. If you post mp3 files using the site's upload feature (use the Go Advanced button) I can throw them into a DAW and an editor and give you more specific suggestions regarding eq.

Absolutely appreciate the additional ears ... I know that I've got the bass up ... but that's intentional. The rumble is not.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I played around with the eq on this track and came up with this for the bass. Brace yourself:



I would do that to the bass, then do the same to the kick but with a couple dB less cut. When I put that eq on the whole mix some other elements thinned out too much, and the kick seemed to become more apparent. You may want to back off the kick's click boost or lower it in the mix just slightly.

One byproduct of cleaning up the lows is that you'll be able to get more volume in mastering before the mix falls apart.

[Edit] Almost forgot to mention, if you're compressing the bass or kick cleaning up the lows will mess with your settings. You may have to readjust them.

 

[K-dub]

I played around with the eq on this track and came up with this for the bass. Brace yourself:

View attachment 98794

I would do that to the bass, then do the same to the kick but with a couple dB less cut. When I put that eq on the whole mix some other elements thinned out too much, and the kick seemed to become more apparent. You may want to back off the kick's click boost or lower it in the mix just slightly.

One byproduct of cleaning up the lows is that you'll be able to get more volume in mastering before the mix falls apart.

[Edit] Almost forgot to mention, if you're compressing the bass or kick cleaning up the lows will mess with your settings. You may have to readjust them.

Interesting ... as I regularly roll ALL the drum tracks off hard on a hi pass filter ... dependent on the track. The kick I will roll hard at about 60 cycles.

I also roll the bass off at *roughly* the same point ... sometime going as high as 70-80 cycles. It is a steep roll ... as I kill all that rumble air that muddies.

I DO, though, have the kick hyped (for push) at about 100 cycles and the bass at about 90 cycles. I've probably got both kicked up +3-4 db in that range.

Your roll at about a buck fifty completely counters the hyping I've done in the aforementioned ranges ... which means that perhaps I've hit the low frequencies a bit too hard ... leading to the rumble you're hearing.

I wonder if I just backed off in the low range a bit more, I might clean it up a bit ...

I have two ways of gauging the bass levels ... for bass ALWAYS sounds great through my Event 20/20s. I listen on headphones. If bass dominates the headphone mix? I know I've got too much. It's got to be there ... but not dominant.

The other method I use is pumping up my Radio Shack Minimus 7s ... which is my main mixing speaker. They do NOT handle too much bass well ... so if they start to distort, I know I've got too much low end in the spectrum.

THEY (the 7s) were right on the verge of complaint ... ever so right on the line.

Thanks for the additional assistance, bud!!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I've had at least three pairs of Minimus 7s, going back to my original silver pair from the 80s. Their LF response drops off steeply at a fairly high frequency, probably just like that cut I suggested. Depending on listening levels it's entirely possible to have the LF too high, not hear it on the Minimus 7s and not distort them.

Do you ever listen to reference tracks on the same system you use to mix? That can really help tune you in to general tonal balance. I check my work on my home system where I can compare it to any other source, like TV, radio, CDs, DVDs etc. That keeps me in touch with the wider world of audio production and calibrates my ear to general tonal balance. With some bass trapping and some referencing I think you could get better mixes faster.

 

[K-dub]

I've had at least three pairs of Minimus 7s, going back to my original silver pair from the 80s. Their LF response drops off steeply at a fairly high frequency, probably just like that cut I suggested. Depending on listening levels it's entirely possible to have the LF too high, not hear it on the Minimus 7s and not distort them.

Do you ever listen to reference tracks on the same system you use to mix? That can really help tune you in to general tonal balance. I check my work on my home system where I can compare it to any other source, like TV, radio, CDs, DVDs etc. That keeps me in touch with the wider world of audio production and calibrates my ear to general tonal balance. With some bass trapping and some referencing I think you could get better mixes faster.

True ... which is why I also use my Sennheiser phones for reference. I usually catch it between the two. I tend to mix at low conversation levels and pop the volume up simply to gain relativity in levels. I actually use Soundcloud to bridge data to my car ... playing it through my phone. My house entertainment system is also tied into my computer network ... so I can listen through regular hi fi speakers (surround sound) also.

 

[K-dub]

Really pulled back on the levels and the compression ... and rolled back the low end ...

Better?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The low end sounds much better. The bass still sounds overly fat to me, but it's more a matter of taste now than a technical issue. And I think the Soundcloud compression is making it hard to judge other details.

I can't remember if we've discussed this: for Soundcloud you should upload WAV files. Soundcloud compresses everything for streaming, even if it was already compressed to MP3. You don't want to double up the data compression on an audio file.

 

[Crazy Luke]

Re: last mix. I'm cool with most instruments here, the bass is thick, but harkens back to a cool 70's vibe. The organ jumps out just a tad too preset for me (if it were a real B3 with Leslie, though, np). The vocals could use a high shelf around 6K and up crispness. Good song and vibe.

 

[K-dub]

Re: last mix. I'm cool with most instruments here, the bass is thick, but harkens back to a cool 70's vibe. The organ jumps out just a tad too preset for me (if it were a real B3 with Leslie, though, np). The vocals could use a high shelf around 6K and up crispness. Good song and vibe.

Thanks guy! We met again tonight ... and our bass player really wanted a differently change up. The song sounds very different now ... in a good way. Will post later.

The perils of playing with people.

 

[K-dub]

New mix is on all links. I also took the suggestion of another buddy of mine and employed a technique to change the room sound on the drums. We do record them in a rather small room, and so I "biggened" them via the methodology outlined in the video below. Plus the bass has a completely different tonal quality ... as requested (prior noted) by the bass player himself.

 

[TripleM]

Decent mix.

I like the lead vocal. It's buried a bit by the guitars.

The drums sound very good. Not much I'd change.

The crunch guitar is pretty muddy. I know you have the acoustic guitars providing the higher end of things. But that crunch is still too muddy.

The bass is too muddy as well.

I think if you notch out the crunch guitar and the bass at around 300hz-330hz it would really help. Then I think I'd take some high end sizzle out of the acoustic guitars. Just a bit.

I think it'd be a cleaner, more open mix if you did that.