Input levels and configuring analog preamps with audio interface.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Clockworkcreep
  • Start date Start date
C

Clockworkcreep

New member
Hello, I set up all of my equipment and tried a recording but found that the process of getting levels is confusing and I might be doing something wrong. I use about 6 different preamps/mics for drum recording and getting levels on one pre results in a loud signal and on the other pres the signal is good but I have to turn down the other tracks a lot to hear it in the mix. After mixing the sound is OK but I need a way to configure my setup so my levels are consistent on the way in. It was much easier to do this with my interface that had built in preamps & when using a mixer connected to an Interface. I feel like the different preamps and the audio interface are complicating the whole process. Any thoughts on this? The recording I did is attached.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
I don’t understand its the same on a mixer or a preamp? You adjust each preamp gain knob to set the level on its way into the mixer or preamp. That way every channel will have undistorted but optimal level. It also means that some faders will end up very low compared to others, that is very normal, and on some mixers there are ways to adjust this to get a bit more fader friendliness. What are you having issues with?
 
rob aylestone said:
I don’t understand it’s the same on a mixer or a preamp? You adjust each preamp gain knob to set the level on its way into the mixer or preamp. That way every channel will have undistorted but optimal level. It also means that some faders will end up very low compared to others, that is very normal, and on some mixers there are ways to adjust this to get a bit more fader friendliness. What are you having issues with?
Click to expand...
The audio interface I’ve gotten is somewhat complicated, to me at least. I have each external preamp going to the inputs on the back of the interface. Now each input has settings that affect those inputs. There is one for “Lo Gain” & “+4 Db” which makes me believe I have to set one or the other properly. While recording, each preamp required different gain settings. I guess that’s normal since they’re all different. 3 of them, though, weren’t getting as loud as I was hoping. They all have a limiter at the end so maybe that’s why. I don’t really know. I am trying to figure out this gear as I go. How do I know which setting to use, Lo gain or +4 db?
 
Clockworkcreep said:
The audio interface I’ve gotten is somewhat complicated, to me at least. I have each external preamp going to the inputs on the back of the interface. Now each input has settings that affect those inputs. There is one for “Lo Gain” & “+4 Db” which makes me believe I have to set one or the other properly. While recording, each preamp required different gain settings. I guess that’s normal since they’re all different. 3 of them, though, weren’t getting as loud as I was hoping. They all have a limiter at the end so maybe that’s why. I don’t really know. I am trying to figure out this gear as I go. How do I know which setting to use, Lo gain or +4 db?
Click to expand...
What interface and what DAW?
 
You have each source connected to a pre-amp, and each of those goes to another pre-amp? OK.
What you have to understand is gain staging. Every connection stage has to work at optimum - so assuming the first interface is the 'highest quality' one, you set the gain stage there to be at the optimum settings to maximise gain, without going into distortion. The output then goes to the next pre-amp in your change and you repeat the process.

The sound quality will then be at the best in terms of noise and distortion, unless you are unlucky, and the performance of one of them to get it's best performance put the other in it's most noisy state? Remember it is common for many interfaces to take in a high level input at line level, reduce it to mic level internally, then amplify that!

Many two pre-amp chains produce worse performance than using one.

If the external preamps are special, boutique or somehow wonderful, and what they do to the signal distorts it in some nice way you want, then if this works for you, great. My experience of cascading preamps is pretty well that the results are less good.

I don't own (or want) any external preamps. I have interfaces that sound great, and if I want I can get a 32 channel nice digital desk out and multitrack with that. There seems little point as all the interfaces I own, do what I need. I could buy something clever and hyped, with tubes and a vintage pedigree, but I don't subscribe to that. I others do, and that is fine - but I've never been able to see that route economically sensible and for me, distortion and noise matter more than all those descriptive words enthusiasts of the clever gear seem to use.
 
Maybe it would be a good idea to tell us what interface and preamps you have.

For the most part, set your preamp to make the signal around -18 dBFS in the DAW.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Maybe it would be a good idea to tell us what interface and preamps you have.

For the most part, set your preamp to make the signal around -18 dBFS in the DAW.
Click to expand...
The interface is the RME UFX II and the preamps are the Daking MicPre II, Warm WA273, Drawmer MXPro-60, & Audient ASP 880.
 
rob aylestone said:
You have each source connected to a pre-amp, and each of those goes to another pre-amp? OK.
What you have to understand is gain staging. Every connection stage has to work at optimum - so assuming the first interface is the 'highest quality' one, you set the gain stage there to be at the optimum settings to maximise gain, without going into distortion. The output then goes to the next pre-amp in your change and you repeat the process.

The sound quality will then be at the best in terms of noise and distortion, unless you are unlucky, and the performance of one of them to get it's best performance put the other in it's most noisy state? Remember it is common for many interfaces to take in a high level input at line level, reduce it to mic level internally, then amplify that!

Many two pre-amp chains produce worse performance than using one.

If the external preamps are special, boutique or somehow wonderful, and what they do to the signal distorts it in some nice way you want, then if this works for you, great. My experience of cascading preamps is pretty well that the results are less good.

I don't own (or want) any external preamps. I have interfaces that sound great, and if I want I can get a 32 channel nice digital desk out and multitrack with that. There seems little point as all the interfaces I own, do what I need. I could buy something clever and hyped, with tubes and a vintage pedigree, but I don't subscribe to that. I others do, and that is fine - but I've never been able to see that route economically sensible and for me, distortion and noise matter more than all those descriptive words enthusiasts of the clever gear seem to use.
Click to expand...
Ok, interesting. I’m plugged into the inputs on the back of an RME UFX-II. I think they are considered Line in. So the question is about the settings on those inputs. They have a setting for either “Lo Gain” or “+4 db”.
 
Yes - try them and pick the one that works for you best. If you set up your exotic preamps to output lots of level, select the appropriate one on the interface, or if you output at a lower level, try the other. If the interface has to have it's gain set high, that's going to ramp up noise. if you have to turn it right down, then you are sending too much.

You have spent five and a half grand (UK) on getting sound into your DAW - without really having a grasp of what these things actually will do for you. Forgive me, but this is crazy. I cannot see how you selected these items? You posted the pics of your studio, with the acoustic tiles and the monitors. This is all a mismatch of stuff. With the basic acoustic treatment, and the monitors being quite small (can't quite see what they are), all this money in the boutique stuff might not even be audible? If they add something, will you actually hear it. The RME interface is well specified, but to get the maximum channel count, it needs very specific devices connected via the available inputs - to connect more than 4 mics requires more kit - which I guess is why you have invested in the other stuff - it's lovely gear but reaching over and turning up a gain knob becomes a real convoluted process that will I suspect, drive you mad!
 
Looking at the manual, the +4 setting seems like it might be a bit hot. What I'd do is get a source going on a mic preamp, set it so the preamp's meter is reading 0 dBVU (which on most gear means +4 dBu), then set the line input gain on the RME to whatever makes the DAW's digital meter read as close to -18 dBFS as possible. And I'd err on the lower end of that number. In the case of the Drawmer, keep the output at 0. One use for that is that if you want to deliberately drive the input too hard, you can compensate by dialing the output back to maintain a proper recording level. For the record, I have quite a bit of experience with the original DaKing preamp and a Drawmer 1960.
 
rob aylestone said:
Yes - try them and pick the one that works for you best. If you set up your exotic preamps to output lots of level, select the appropriate one on the interface, or if you output at a lower level, try the other. If the interface has to have it's gain set high, that's going to ramp up noise. if you have to turn it right down, then you are sending too much.

You have spent five and a half grand (UK) on getting sound into your DAW - without really having a grasp of what these things actually will do for you. Forgive me, but this is crazy. I cannot see how you selected these items? You posted the pics of your studio, with the acoustic tiles and the monitors. This is all a mismatch of stuff. With the basic acoustic treatment, and the monitors being quite small (can't quite see what they are), all this money in the boutique stuff might not even be audible? If they add something, will you actually hear it. The RME interface is well specified, but to get the maximum channel count, it needs very specific devices connected via the available inputs - to connect more than 4 mics requires more kit - which I guess is why you have invested in the other stuff - it's lovely gear but reaching over and turning up a gain knob becomes a real convoluted process that will I suspect, drive you mad!
Click to expand...
I definitely went way too far with all this gear. I figured I’d get good gear and that would translate to a better sound. Now I’m in the process of fine tuning the room and learning how to use this gear since I have it. I don’t really want to sell it or change anything as I don’t have the time or money at the moment. I am only recording myself so I hope to get everything dialed in to a point where I don’t have to move stuff around or adjust levels, particularly with the drums. Once I get the drum sound the mics and settings will not really change. I started using less mics on the drums because I had so many set up and adjusting them all just got annoying. So basically I will be using dedicated drum preamps and mics.
 
rob aylestone said:
Yes - try them and pick the one that works for you best. If you set up your exotic preamps to output lots of level, select the appropriate one on the interface, or if you output at a lower level, try the other. If the interface has to have it's gain set high, that's going to ramp up noise. if you have to turn it right down, then you are sending too much.

You have spent five and a half grand (UK) on getting sound into your DAW - without really having a grasp of what these things actually will do for you. Forgive me, but this is crazy. I cannot see how you selected these items? You posted the pics of your studio, with the acoustic tiles and the monitors. This is all a mismatch of stuff. With the basic acoustic treatment, and the monitors being quite small (can't quite see what they are), all this money in the boutique stuff might not even be audible? If they add something, will you actually hear it. The RME interface is well specified, but to get the maximum channel count, it needs very specific devices connected via the available inputs - to connect more than 4 mics requires more kit - which I guess is why you have invested in the other stuff - it's lovely gear but reaching over and turning up a gain knob becomes a real convoluted process that will I suspect, drive you mad!
Click to expand...
Also, I have a grasp on what the stuff does. I have everything routed and streamlined. I am learning how to use the gear. I don’t think someone knows how to use something 100% until they have it and work with it for a while. You say your set up is simple. I could easily turn this into a simple set up. But I wanted to get the best stuff I could possibly afford as it was good timing and I definitely cannot get any other high end gear. For example I could route everything thru the Audient ASP 880 and only use the RME. That would give me 12 inputs to work with in 2 units. I like the Daking on acoustic guitar so I may switch my overheads to something else in order to free that up. Having a lot of options was what I was going for. Once I find the right way to set this stuff up for me, it will remain that way to streamline the process. I also utilize templates in my DAW. I strive to make the setup I have as easy as possible with everything 90% set up. Then I hit record and play. The other 10% is moving mics and setting levels. Is this possible? I guess I’ll find out.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Looking at the manual, the +4 setting seems like it might be a bit hot. What I'd do is get a source going on a mic preamp, set it so the preamp's meter is reading 0 dBVU (which on most gear means +4 dBu), then set the line input gain on the RME to whatever makes the DAW's digital meter read as close to -18 dBFS as possible. And I'd err on the lower end of that number. In the case of the Drawmer, keep the output at 0. One use for that is that if you want to deliberately drive the input too hard, you can compensate by dialing the output back to maintain a proper recording level. For the record, I have quite a bit of experience with the original DaKing preamp and a Drawmer 1960.
Click to expand...
This is helpful thank you.
 
This "level interchange" problem is one experienced quite often by people who try to connect gear such a s mic pre amps and mixers to interfaces.
The OP is quite fortunate with the UFXll because the line inputs can handle up to +19dBu (and a bit I bet being RME!). Many AIs clip at +12-+16dBu and the least said about the UMC range the better!

Pres and mixers on the other hand can almost always manage +22dBu, and some a lot more, then there is the fact that the reason many folks buy an add on pre amp is to get some "mojo harmonics" to thicken the sound. Trouble is this only works for fairly high signal levels, too high for many interfaces.

The solution is pretty simple if you can solder. Just make up a resistive attenuator to reduce the pre/mixer level to a more appropriate one for the AI. Can't solder?* You can look on't web for "line attenuators" but they are like rocking horse droppings. Most are for mics and thus of too low an impedance for line outputs. You need 10k Ohms minimum. Also they are all on XLRs and most times you need TRS.

*Bloody learn! $50 or so will get you a decent solder station and unless you are the worlds biggest klutz a weekend's practice will have you fixing XLR and TRS cables at least.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
This "level interchange" problem is one experienced quite often by people who try to connect gear such a s mic pre amps and mixers to interfaces.
The OP is quite fortunate with the UFXll because the line inputs can handle up to +19dBu (and a bit I bet being RME!). Many AIs clip at +12-+16dBu and the least said about the UMC range the better!

Pres and mixers on the other hand can almost always manage +22dBu, and some a lot more, then there is the fact that the reason many folks buy an add on pre amp is to get some "mojo harmonics" to thicken the sound. Trouble is this only works for fairly high signal levels, too high for many interfaces.

The solution is pretty simple if you can solder. Just make up a resistive attenuator to reduce the pre/mixer level to a more appropriate one for the AI. Can't solder?* You can look on't web for "line attenuators" but they are like rocking horse droppings. Most are for mics and thus of too low an impedance for line outputs. You need 10k Ohms minimum. Also they are all on XLRs and most times you need TRS.

*Bloody learn! $50 or so will get you a decent solder station and unless you are the worlds biggest klutz a weekend's practice will have you fixing XLR and TRS cables at least.

Dave.
Click to expand...
Good information Dave! Wouldn’t it be possible to just turn the gain on the preamp up and then lower the output level? Kind of like a master volume on a guitar amp. does using the attenuator provide better sound or something?
 
Clockworkcreep said:
Good information Dave! Wouldn’t it be possible to just turn the gain on the preamp up and then lower the output level? Kind of like a master volume on a guitar amp. does using the attenuator provide better sound or something?
Click to expand...
Or even pad it ?
 
Clockworkcreep said:
Good information Dave! Wouldn’t it be possible to just turn the gain on the preamp up and then lower the output level? Kind of like a master volume on a guitar amp. does using the attenuator provide better sound or something?
Click to expand...
No not "better" sound nor worse, it just brings the output of the pre amp inline with the sensitivity of the interface.
There are only two reasons I can see for using an external pre amp with an interface, especially these days when AIs have remarkably good pre amplifiers...my MOTU M4 certainly does!
One reason is that an AI pre might not have sufficient gain and low noise for a particular microphone and application, think a distant ribbon on a classical guitar? The main reason however is to have a pre amp that can deliver some extra "quality" such as mild distortion to the proceedings. Think of all those Neve single ended output stages! The problem here is that once you have advanced the gain to mildly overdrive the pre's output stage you are often producing +22dBu or more. All a resistive attenuator will do is get the level back to one that the AI can cope with. N.B. A "pad" is just another name for an attenuator.

Dave.
 
The reason he's using external preamps is that his AI has four line inputs that don't have mic preamps. The line inputs have two gain settings, +4 and Lo Gain. It looks to me like on the +4 setting +4 dBu = -9 dBFS (+4 dBu + 9 dB = +13 dBu = 0 dBFS), and on the Lo Gain setting +4 dBu = -15 dBFS (+4dBu +15 dB = +19 dBu = 0 dBFS). That is, even the Lo Gain setting has more gain that most ADCs I'm used to, where +4 dBu = -18 dBFS. I would find that a bit annoying when using professional line level devices.

1755193182252.webp
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top