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Ed Fones
Well-known member
Here is an example of the empty hollow room boom. Mate and Tommy words.
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JamEZmusic
Active member
I don't want to suggest you have a problem with the F6, I looked it up and those pre-amps are 75db worth of power. Which is powerful as hell.
Your original problem was the room sound but you mention your F6 is struggling with that mic to record a proper level. I just find it hard to believe your unit is defective. Not unless you plug the mic into channel 2-6 and they all work. If they are all the same, is your master up at 100% ? On the F4 the master fader is hidden in a bloody menu, not ideal.
I have no experience with that unit unfortunately, but you should have all the power you could ever want with 75dbs of pre-amp gain on tap with that condenser. Something is amiss. IMO. Maybe the mic is the problem? the cable not supplying phantom power? I highly doubt it's a defective F6. But something is not quite right if you have the power on max and levels are still low. Do you have any other mic lying around? The F6 should cope with power hungry mics no problem, dynamics and ribbons.
On the F4, I rarely turn up the pre-amp past half way, no matter what mics I use. I reckon your master might not be set to 100% perhaps. If it's not that then I don't know what else could be the problem on the unit itself.
Your original problem was the room sound but you mention your F6 is struggling with that mic to record a proper level. I just find it hard to believe your unit is defective. Not unless you plug the mic into channel 2-6 and they all work. If they are all the same, is your master up at 100% ? On the F4 the master fader is hidden in a bloody menu, not ideal.
I have no experience with that unit unfortunately, but you should have all the power you could ever want with 75dbs of pre-amp gain on tap with that condenser. Something is amiss. IMO. Maybe the mic is the problem? the cable not supplying phantom power? I highly doubt it's a defective F6. But something is not quite right if you have the power on max and levels are still low. Do you have any other mic lying around? The F6 should cope with power hungry mics no problem, dynamics and ribbons.
On the F4, I rarely turn up the pre-amp past half way, no matter what mics I use. I reckon your master might not be set to 100% perhaps. If it's not that then I don't know what else could be the problem on the unit itself.
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
The F6 is loud when the fader is turned up fully, but it introduces lots of 'hiss' onto the recording so unusable at anywhere near that level.
With this mic is only starts to work near the half way mark on the fader and I have only used it in socket 4 so far which has 48v applied. Not tried with other mics yet.
It has latest firmware update but unsure what you mean by 'master not set to 100%'?
With this mic is only starts to work near the half way mark on the fader and I have only used it in socket 4 so far which has 48v applied. Not tried with other mics yet.
It has latest firmware update but unsure what you mean by 'master not set to 100%'?
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Deleted member 196982
Guest
As pointed out, the available gain on he F6 is more than adequate. I’ve had the F8 and still have the F8n and the preamps are very quiet.
Make sure you are using 32-bit float mode and set the TRIM properly for the mic, which should not need to be turned up all the way. You can increase the gain in post to reach any normal audio level, assuming you do not have a faulty mic. My NTG2 was fairly normal output for a condenser, but its self-noise is louder than the F6 preamp. Still, the ambient noise in your space is the usual suspect.
Plug in another mic to a different channel, put them a couple feet in front of your wife and set the trim (aka gain, not the fader) so they record at the same level. Post the raw tracks here.
Make sure you are using 32-bit float mode and set the TRIM properly for the mic, which should not need to be turned up all the way. You can increase the gain in post to reach any normal audio level, assuming you do not have a faulty mic. My NTG2 was fairly normal output for a condenser, but its self-noise is louder than the F6 preamp. Still, the ambient noise in your space is the usual suspect.
Plug in another mic to a different channel, put them a couple feet in front of your wife and set the trim (aka gain, not the fader) so they record at the same level. Post the raw tracks here.
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
I tried the Rode Lavalier 11 and there was an improvement when dangled overhead, but not when worn. It is definitely the room and we have acquired 4 duvets to try and improve the situation.
Keith will do.
Keith will do.
rob aylestone
Moderator
My H6 has plenty of gain and the knobs are smooth and progressive - they also follow my expectations, so turn up or down in the usual proportions. You sure the pad isn't switched in? I use them on low output dynamics and condensers - no problem. I can also use something like an SM7B which normally needs a cloud lifter without it going to noisy as long as I don't do silly things with distance.
I did a video with some different shotguns in a poor room (My office) then another with them in the studio.
I did a video with some different shotguns in a poor room (My office) then another with them in the studio.
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
What do you mean by the 'pad' Rob?
rob aylestone
Moderator
The switch next to the knobs - each one can be padded down to cope with loud sounds, but if they are in the minus position, you won't have enough gain for loud sounds.
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Deleted member 196982
Guest
OP said he had an F6, not an H6. All the settings, like gain/trim, are in the sub-menu. It might be useful to know what the settings are, phantom power settings, etc. Just to confirm.
Full manual here: https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F6.pdf
(Search the PDF for "setting the input source".)
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
48v phantom Keith.
I tried the Rode Lavalier 11 plugged into my H5 and similar but lesser results so it is the room really.
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Deleted member 196982
Guest
Using 32-bit *float* mode with sufficient TRIM/GAIN on the F6, you should be able to capture a good signal that can be cleaned up pretty well with something like iZotope's RX. This assumes the ambient noise is consistent, which it probably is if you're not "hearing" it in the room.
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
No Keith only noticeable on certain words which then ruin the recording. I will have a look at that plug-in.
$1200
$1200
rob aylestone
Moderator
Sorry - brain is a bit dead. Sorry for confusion.
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Deleted member 196982
Guest
Yeah, you have to wait for a sale. The "Elements" ($129( version's Voice De-noise might be enough, but certainly, the "Standard" ($399) version's Spectral De-noise works on almost anything I've thrown at it. You might find some free de-noiser plug-in works fine for what you are doing, though.No Keith only noticeable on certain words which then ruin the recording. I will have a look at that plug-in.
$1200
But, the problem with the recording I hear is just unclear articulation, and it's not noise that's masking it, but I'd guess a combination of the delivery and mic position/aim, which is not picking up those parts of speech (names I don't know, but our son, the linguistics major, could identify) that would make it clear. It is not what I would call a noisy recording. I would start by recording with the mic close enough to get a clearly articulated reading, then move it away a foot at a time, adjusting the aim to keep the sound clear. (And, adjust gain at the same time - next paragraph.)
I’m still a bit concerned about the gain "structure" you have set up. The sample recording is *very* low. You should shoot for a [true] peak of say -10dB, and you do that by adjusting the Trim (aka "gain"). That setting is something in the INPUT settings (referenced in my previous post), and is a linear number, that can be from +12 to +75dB. It is not controlled by the "fader" which simply changes what the output level is in the mix/headphones, likely with an audio-taper pot, (and the headphone amp on the Zoom field recorder is likely still one of their weak points). Then, make sure you are recording in at least 24-bit, though since you have the F6, I would certainly use 32-bit [float] mode. If you can't import that directly into your DAW, choose the Dual mode that includes both those settings. See some of the attachments.
p.s. you do want the HPF on for voice work, IMO.
Attachments
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
Keith I had seen in YouTube videos to set the trim at +22 maximum, cant remember why at this time. Yes it is set at 24/32bit. When in 32bit the Trim cannot be altered.
In this or these videos the mic has to be invisible which was my reason for using the NGT2.
In this or these videos the mic has to be invisible which was my reason for using the NGT2.
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Deleted member 196982
Guest
I thought the Trim was automatically set when it is in 32-bit float mode, and sounds like it is. If you are using the 24-bit file, you need to set it [Trim level] to whatever makes the track record at to give a good signal (vs. noise floor). There's no "fixed" amount that can be given in advance for any mic - it depends on the source being recorded and placement.
Some Curtis Judd videos - not everything is applicable, but it might help. He places the boom mic 30-50cm away (above and in front) from the "talent" and aims it a 45° down - I've heard somewhere, that it should be aimed more toward the chest than their face. Worth trying.
p.s. mics don't "care" whether they're above or below the source. If you can put it below, aimed up, and get it a bit closer, it's worth a try. That's what I do for the online lessons I am taking - just a regular SDC on a short stand with a short boom just below waist height while I'm seated. (It is a little bit farther than optimal, but my room is well treated so most noise is just externall stuff.) I like that there's no long boom hanging overhead!
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
Yes originally I just had it set in 32bit which means the input gain is pre set. Yes I watched his vids and what Rob Aylestone said, I repositioned the mic closer.
The mic is now less than 300mm away from the top of her head. Front positioning is better but problematic with video. Neck and chest positioning is ideal because face positioning picks up lots of mouth noises.
The mic is now less than 300mm away from the top of her head. Front positioning is better but problematic with video. Neck and chest positioning is ideal because face positioning picks up lots of mouth noises.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Chest is important. Before we had miniature mics for lavs, we hung mics around peoples necks and they’d be around about the sternum (is that the right word for the flat bit?) it would have a strange sort of honk from the resonance of your chest cavity. A sort of big hump in the frequency response. Some manufacturers would tweak the curve of the mic to remove it, but then it sounded thin on some people? In the seventies, graphics started appearing and you could start to flatten them properly, but the new small mics a bit higher up, fixed it much better.
the trouble with shotguns is a simple one. They need to be aimed at the place the noise comes from. Distance makes aiming more tricky, and the extra gain needed brings up the background you hear when you miss the mouth. Despite having lots of them, I don’t use them in my studio for videos simply because a few degrees of a head turn to address more than one camera is such a strong timbre change.
back in the 90’s I had five in a row along the stage edge and the capture was horrrible. Not just the annoying comb filtering, but with actors, they’d stand one metre to the left and they would be replaced by the singing of the actor three metres back singing with gusto. I swapped them for boundary mics and there was so much improvement.
shotguns need constant aiming, or keeping the source tied down so they can move. They’re a specialist tool, sadly now just misused by loads of how to YouTube videos. For most people, a super or hyper-cardioid would be so much better.
the trouble with shotguns is a simple one. They need to be aimed at the place the noise comes from. Distance makes aiming more tricky, and the extra gain needed brings up the background you hear when you miss the mouth. Despite having lots of them, I don’t use them in my studio for videos simply because a few degrees of a head turn to address more than one camera is such a strong timbre change.
back in the 90’s I had five in a row along the stage edge and the capture was horrrible. Not just the annoying comb filtering, but with actors, they’d stand one metre to the left and they would be replaced by the singing of the actor three metres back singing with gusto. I swapped them for boundary mics and there was so much improvement.
shotguns need constant aiming, or keeping the source tied down so they can move. They’re a specialist tool, sadly now just misused by loads of how to YouTube videos. For most people, a super or hyper-cardioid would be so much better.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I did a short video, and at the end gave my conclusion - which wasn't actually what I expected.
The lav is in severe need of EQ - the one I recorded first was a B6 Countryman, one of my favourites, but I messed up. I pulled it out and the cable had a knot in it, and somebody had pulled it quite tight, so I prised the not turns apart with a screwdriver and managed to snap something inside (I suspect) the mic was low output and there was a fairly nasty interference, that I tracked down to a dodgy power supply. It made the audio unusuable, and the Proel was a poor choice, but the only one I had available.
The lav is in severe need of EQ - the one I recorded first was a B6 Countryman, one of my favourites, but I messed up. I pulled it out and the cable had a knot in it, and somebody had pulled it quite tight, so I prised the not turns apart with a screwdriver and managed to snap something inside (I suspect) the mic was low output and there was a fairly nasty interference, that I tracked down to a dodgy power supply. It made the audio unusuable, and the Proel was a poor choice, but the only one I had available.
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Ed Fones
Well-known member
All new tests point to room treatment. At present have old duvets hanging from ceiling everywhere and a real improvement possibly even useable. Now just need some very cheap acoustic foam and lots of it.