Mic Bleed

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dalezjc

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So I'm recording a Pearl Masters kit and I'm close-mic'ing all the drums. I've also recently started using Audix mics and the bleed from hi-hat bleed into the tom mics is horrible. So at this point, I have to EQ the bleed out of the tom tracks and not sure what the best type of EQ to apply here.

Any help is appreciated. Below is a pic of my kit and mic set up.

Thanks,
Dale
 

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From the way you've miked the toms in your photo, I'd suggest you set your mics differently. Try turning them so they all face your right hand wall. I presume they are unidirectional mics so that may help cut out some of the hi~hat bleed. The way the hi~hat is played also has a great bearing on their bleed to other mics. I've found when recording drummers that some really whack the hats but the strange thing is that they don't need it. Even fairly light~ish playing will still be picked up loud and clear.
What sort of music do you record ?
 
Agreed, Grim.

The mic on the left most tom is pointing straight at the high hat. Rotating in 90 degrees around the drum head should put the HH out of the polar pattern of the mic.

Of course, there is the old 60s-70s trick of removing the bottom head from the tom and micing from the bottom. I was watching a broadcast of California Jam, and it looked like a lot of time there was a 421 stuck up under the toms.
 
This is a nightmare! Why would you do this to yourself? Use the close mice to trigger samples that were recorded in a decent room.
 
Sometimes you might do things with real drums that you can't do with samples. If you're just smacking the toms, then doing a sample will work, but unless you've got an infinite number of samples from each drum, you probably can't catch all the techniques and nuances of a real drummer.
 
While moving the mic around to put the hihats in the null is probably a good idea, I bet it has more to do with the playing, hitting the hihats a lot harder than the toms. But at least try moving the mic.
 
Maybe part of it is also the hi-hat cymbals...if they are loud/cutting and more intended for live use...?

I use Zildjian A Mastersound 13" hats...and I also have another 13" Mastersound pair that has a K Mastersound on top and an A on the bottom.

They both have a very smooth, hit and chick sound...with the all-A hats being a tad more brighter and the one with the K a tad darker...but neither is loud or cutting.

AFA using EQ...it's going to be something in the 2kHZ - 5kHz range, I would guess...really depends on the cymbals...for you to remove the meat of the hats from the toms...but, you may very well also kill the attack on the toms when you use the EQ.

You also seem to be in a pretty tight space there from looking at the picture...and I don't see much in the way of acoustic treatment.
If you deaden the walls/ceiling a bit, it will help suck up the highs coming off the cymbals...but that's a whole other topic. :)
 
ashcat_lt said:
This is a nightmare! Why would you do this to yourself? Use the close mice to trigger samples that were recorded in a decent room.
Click to expand...

While I do agree that samples can be quite helpful and sometimes better sounding...and for us guys who are not drummers...
...there's something about capturing a live kit...and once you get the room and miking sorted out, it could be quite good...but it takes some work to get there. :)
You can always add samples if you want to change the sound of the kit for a given need.
 
miroslav said:
Maybe part of it is also the hi-hat cymbals...if they are loud/cutting and more intended for live use...?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the other contributing factor I should have mentioned.
 
You could move all the cymbals an inch or two...

...wait no you can't.

You could actually treat the damn room so that the reflections of the hat aren't just about as loud as the hat itself in every damn mic...

...wait no...

Next thread. Why don't my close mic'd, gated, EQd close tom mics work?

Ummmm....
 
I would do it completely different. Have the drummer play the entire song and record it all on one track from one mic. (this will get deleted later) Then let the drummer listen to that as he plays each drum and hat separately onto their own track.
 
PlatHavPro said:
I would do it completely different. Have the drummer play the entire song and record it all on one track from one mic. (this will get deleted later) Then let the drummer listen to that as he plays each drum and hat separately onto their own track.
Click to expand...

That could work, but I'd never, ever do it like that because it sounds like the world's most tedious and creativity killing way to record drums.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
That could work, but I'd never, ever do it like that because it sounds like the world's most tedious and creativity killing way to record drums.
Click to expand...

Yea, it is a little more tedious, but you have much more control over the end sound. It doesn't kill your creativity at all the drums have already been done exactly how you want them. Now your just going back and recording them one at a time. By the time your recording them the creative process is already done because the drummer shouldn't be coming up with things on the fly during recording.
 
That's not how I see it. We did this as an experiment when I was teaching music technology. We tried this as a test. We did it with a piano and drums.we recorded the whole thing on piano and drums, complete with of course mistakes.we then replaced the piano with left hand and right hand recorded in different takes, and did kick and snare in one take, toms in the next and then hats and metal stuff. Looking at them on the screen, all the musicality had gone. The little pushes and pulls, the timing of the run downs through be toms ending on the kick were horrible, and the same thing on piano. The left hand and right hand kind of missed each other. The right hand became metronomic and always hit the beats where it didn't when played with the left hand doing its bit. You end up with something that sounds quantised. You could have done better with a drum machine. It's an awful idea. It's also not the way drummers normally play, so they won't play as well.
 
Can anyone imagine Keith Moon trying to recreate a Who song one drum at a time? :laughings:
 
" Even fairly light~ish playing will still be picked up loud and clear. "

Going to ask a drummer to hit softer? Good luck with that!

Dave.
 
dalezjc said:
So I'm recording a Pearl Masters kit and I'm close-mic'ing all the drums. I've also recently started using Audix mics and the bleed from hi-hat bleed into the tom mics is horrible. So at this point, I have to EQ the bleed out of the tom tracks and not sure what the best type of EQ to apply here.

Any help is appreciated. Below is a pic of my kit and mic set up.

Thanks,
Dale
Click to expand...

So i am going to suggest something different: Put something on the walls to reduce the HF splashing back and turn the kit around 180 degrees.
 
ecc83 said:
" Even fairly light~ish playing will still be picked up loud and clear. "

Going to ask a drummer to hit softer? Good luck with that!
Click to expand...
Well, if the drummer is worthy of their craft, play a little softer they will where necessary. There are means and ways......
 
grimtraveller said:
Well, if the drummer is worthy of their craft, play a little softer they will where necessary. There are means and ways......
Click to expand...

+1 to that.
It's usually the last thing a tech suggests and the first thing a drummer suggests; play the hat quieter.

If the drummer really is in control and that piece of the kit is simply too loud for the set, switch it out.

If the drummer is on point and the kit sounds perfectly balanced in the room then the mic position is possibly a problem.
Place the hat in the tom mic nulls (by moving microphones).

If all of that is under control and bleed is still a problem, consider the possibility that it's not.
Bleed is meant to be there and, like hiss, it's very easy to notice it and then become so focussed on it that you lose perspective.
 
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