Can I successfully record my soprano voice with Focusrite 2i2 3rd generation studio?

[TalismanRich]

Coming in post recording there shouldn't be any issue with latency. Just make sure that the vocals are recorded at a proper max level and add the echo for playback.

I did a bit of playing with the extract audio that Dave posted of her recording. I listened to the other posts from Derya's Youtube page, and then started playing around with some of the hall reverbs (Briscati M7 responses from Samplicity). I kept it a bit strong to try to sound like a hall recording. I settled on the ArchDuke M/S, set at -36dB below the dry signal. To me it sounded quite nice, and with the fact that the original vocal was actually done in a smaller room, I thought it had a bit more clarity to the vocal.

I threw a limiter on just to take the peaks down a dB or 2.

This was the result.

Reverb can be a funny thing. Sometimes you think its set PERFECTLY, and upon playback its way too much or way too little.

In any case, I would be interested to know if this is a direction that Derya thinks might be helpful. To much? Not enough? Took a wrong turn?

 

[Deleted member 196982]

I'll play. I just trimmed off the start, use Logic's Space Designer (reverb - Vocal Hall IR), stock ("Red" 2:1/1dB+) compressor then did some EQ and limiting in Ozone 8 to move it to -14dB LUFS (for YouTube).

View attachment O cessate di piagarmi.mp3

p.s. original video (though Dave's MP3 captured it

 

[dariamente]

Hi! I uploaded 2 more videos on my channel with more high notes.

I turned down the mic gain just a little bit from halfway when I recorded "Tu che di gel" and recorded "Les Berceaux" on the same setting as "O cessate di piagarmi"
I am using a professionally recorded piano accompaniment. I just turned down the volume of the piano on the DAW to hear my voice better.

I am using Cakewalk as a DAW. I see that the program has a compressor called Sonitus but I don't know how to use it. Also, there are other fxs for reverb.

Do you think it is better to add fxs after I have the recording or would it change the quality of the recording if I bought the Yamaha mixer?

Thank you all for your help!

Daria

 

[ecc83]

Keith: I cannot see how Daria can avoid some latency* using her AI and a DAW because the signal has to be processed and come out again. Sure, latency is often not much of a problem with a whiff of reverb to most singers but the effect might be very off putting in the 'precision' world of opera.

Daria also want the reverb to assist her performance because of the small room (we all THINK we sound better in the bath!) . This is not the usual 'ego' verb that pop singers have but an attempt to simulate her natural surroundings. I agree that she should record dry and only add reverb post tracking when it can be controlled, always keeping the original take of course.

The same logic I think applies to the compression. I suspect the FEAR of going into the red has some effect on her performance and of course such compression has to be used before the signal hits the interface.

Daria, I am sorry this is all getting rather complicated and that I am suggesting you spend quite a bit more money. I would not suggest a mixer in the vast majority of cases but for you I think it is the way to go.
If you want me to I can draw you a (v crude!) diagram of how I think the mixer and AI will work together.

Can I ask, do you have the piano part actually playng in the room as you sing and if so from what?

*Just in case you are a bit lost there Daria. Latency is the delay heard between making a sound, or say striking a note on a synth, and hearing the actual sound. Good equipment and software can make this so low as to be almost inaudible to most people most of the time but it some case people can be very sensitive to even a short delay.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

Hi! I uploaded 2 more videos on my channel with more high notes.

I turned down the mic gain just a little bit from halfway when I recorded "Tu che di gel" and recorded "Les Berceaux" on the same setting as "O cessate di piagarmi"
I am using a professionally recorded piano accompaniment. I just turned down the volume of the piano on the DAW to hear my voice better.

I am using Cakewalk as a DAW. I see that the program has a compressor called Sonitus but I don't know how to use it. Also, there are other fxs for reverb.

Do you think it is better to add fxs after I have the recording or would it change the quality of the recording if I bought the Yamaha mixer?

Thank you all for your help!

Daria

I would add the effects later. Once committed to the track, its hard to undo things if you aren't pleased with the result, especially with reverb. To some degree equalization and compression can be "corrected" but reverb adds to the signal. If you keep notes and know that you boosted at 8kHz by 3dB, you can later go back and drop at 8kHz by 3dB and be back at the same point as the original recording. This technique was used for pressing records for years to improve signal to noise. It was called the RIAA curve.

Reverb is a different story all together. Its not a trivial matter to just "un-reverb" a track.

Do you feel you need to have the reverb to be comfortable singing the parts, or are you good with the way you are recording them now? I'm going to assume that you load the piano track into Cakewalk and then sing along with the accompaniment so that you have a pure piano track and a pure vocal track. You can then mix and adjust as you see fit to balance the two. That would be the point at which I would add compression and reverb.

My reasoning on this us that in a home recording situation, you don't usually have the luxury of having an engineer listening to the recording and tweaking it as the session progresses. Its harder to identify how changes you make in settings are going to affect the final sound. For me, its better to get the straight recording and then make adjustments when you can listen critically, not under the pressure of performing. That is simply MY preference in recording things.

Of course you can always go back and redo recordings. Its not a live situation after all.

I would suggest you play with the compression and reverb in Cakewalk. It doesn't hurt to play. As long as you don't overwrite the original files, EVERYTHING can be undone. I think that's the way most of us learn what these things do.

I look forward to hearing some more of your work (and this is coming from someone NOT versed in opera!)

BTW, you have a wonderful voice!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Sometimes having reverb or a short delay can help the singer hear themselves better. It can be set up so that the reverb isn't recorded. But reverb/delay can also muddy the waters. It's worth a try.

 

[Deleted member 196982]

Hi! I uploaded 2 more videos on my channel with more high notes.

I turned down the mic gain just a little bit from halfway when I recorded "Tu che di gel" and recorded "Les Berceaux" on the same setting as "O cessate di piagarmi"
I am using a professionally recorded piano accompaniment. I just turned down the volume of the piano on the DAW to hear my voice better.

I am using Cakewalk as a DAW. I see that the program has a compressor called Sonitus but I don't know how to use it. Also, there are other fxs for reverb.

Do you think it is better to add fxs after I have the recording or would it change the quality of the recording if I bought the Yamaha mixer?

Thank you all for your help!

Daria

I prefer to record "dry" with no FX going in, because as has been said, it leaves the tracks in a state where you can do whatever is needed to make the mix the way you want. Effects like compression and reverb cannot be removed, so you are stuck with decisions made at the time the track is recorded, and when you get to the final stages of mixing/mastering, it may be the wrong choice was made.

Yes, there are some plugins that attempt to "de-" reverb/compress, but they do not return the track to the same state, and good plugs like that are not cheap. And, yes, experienced recording engineers do record that way sometimes, but *experienced* is the operative word there.

You can record with compression and possibly reverb turned on in the DAW (Cakewalk) so you hear something that is more like what the finished mix will be, but sometimes the latency introduced by those plugins make the recording difficult. I.e., you have a pre-recorded piano part, and the vocal track has both reverb and compression plugins. What you hear back in the headphones will be delayed by the time it takes the computer to add those effects (FX) to the original signal and send it back. It depends on the plugins, the bus protocol speed, hardware in the interface and computer and driver/DAW stack software whether the latency is noticeable.

If possible, I would hold off on the use of FX on recording, and use them when you mix. Sometimes backing tracks already have a fair amount of compression, so if you use a compressor on that track, I would probably only use it for "ducking" against the vocal, and maybe have the sidechain filtered by specific frequencies.

I'd probably set up different reverbs for the vocal and piano, with different pre-delay values at least, and apply EQ to the output to focus it on the mid frequencies.

But the thing I wonder about is room resonances because the EQ seems to be very "peaky" in certain areas. Because I only have the mix that was scraped off the video, and haven't heard any of the other raw tracks of your singing, and am not familiar with this particular piece, it's a little hard to say. Someone more knowledgeable about all of these things could probably steer you better, but I think your recording, as it stands, is a good start. So long as you keep the music peaks well below 0dB, and have the soft parts above the noise floor of your recording space (and I did hear some rumble - so I suggest a HPF on the vocal track), you should be able to steadily improve.

I'm a big fan of "reference" tracks. Listen to other professionally recorded tracks and compare yours, and figure out what the difference is.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

You can record with compression and possibly reverb turned on in the DAW (Cakewalk) so you hear something that is more like what the finished mix will be, but sometimes the latency introduced by those plugins make the recording difficult. I.e., you have a pre-recorded piano part, and the vocal track has both reverb and compression plugins. What you hear back in the headphones will be delayed by the time it takes the computer to add those effects (FX) to the original signal and send it back. It depends on the plugins, the bus protocol speed, hardware in the interface and computer and driver/DAW stack software whether the latency is noticeable.

Direct monitor the live vocal but send it to a reverb in the DAW and send that out to the monitor mix (without any dry vocal coming from the DAW). You can dial back the pre-delay in the reverb if there's too much latency. Obviously that wouldn't work for a series effect like compression, but for parallel effects it's often workable.

 

[dariamente]

Hello! After reading all of your advice, I experimented with the Cakewalk effects and found a couple of them that I really like! One of them has a compressor and the other one helped me to give the ambiance of a bigger room instead of a big hall which is what I prefer for these recordings. I think the hall effects sound a bit hallow. Usually, when you sing in a hall you still don't have that much echo because of the audience. It sounds funny when I say it but if you think about it, there is a big difference between singing to a full house and an empty one.

Effects that I added really helped me to find the balance that I was looking for! So, thank you all very much for all the wonderful advice!

However, I also decided to purchase the mixer Because from listening back to my recordings, I understand that I pushed too much on my high notes and that is because of the size of my apartment. I started performing when I was 15 and I am 29 now. From my education and my experience, I know how to manage my breath pressure on high and low notes. When I sing in a bigger room or a hall, I can manage my voice to be heard from all corners of the space by utilizing my breath and even my vowels in a different way. In a sense, I am my own sound engineer But in this small space where I do not have the feeling of an acoustic, I automatically used too much breath pressure. I always direct monitor when I am recording because I need to hear the piano track. I tried to add reverb on the DAW but it was too much and I don't know how to dial it down. This is why I believe having the built-in compression and the effects will help me perform better. I might be terribly wrong but we'll see.

I will add the songs that I edited on my channel. I would love to hear your feedback.

Thank you all so much!

Daria

 

[Deleted member 196982]

...
Effects that I added really helped me to find the balance that I was looking for! So, thank you all very much for all the wonderful advice!

However, I also decided to purchase the mixer Because from listening back to my recordings, I understand that I pushed too much on my high notes and that is because of the size of my apartment. I started performing when I was 15 and I am 29 now. From my education and my experience, I know how to manage my breath pressure on high and low notes. When I sing in a bigger room or a hall, I can manage my voice to be heard from all corners of the space by utilizing my breath and even my vowels in a different way. In a sense, I am my own sound engineer But in this small space where I do not have the feeling of an acoustic, I automatically used too much breath pressure. I always direct monitor when I am recording because I need to hear the piano track. I tried to add reverb on the DAW but it was too much and I don't know how to dial it down. This is why I believe having the built-in compression and the effects will help me perform better. I might be terribly wrong but we'll see.
....

First, on the reverb, you might not find one in the mixer you like, so using the DAW for that might still give you a better effect in the end. To repeat myself, saving those kinds of effects for the mixing stage (vs. recording) gives you the chance to try all the different options, and adjust the amount of effect. If it's in the recorded track, you have less options.

Now, how to adjust the level of reverb (bold text): the "standard" way this is done in a DAW is to put the reverb effect on an AUX track, and you use a SEND from the track you want to add the effect on to that AUX (via a BUS). I'm not familiar with your DAW, and sometimes the terminology is used (or misused, depending on your POV) differently in different DAWs. For instance , in Logic Pro, on an audio track, I can add a SEND, and I choose a BUS where I want to send the audio to. The AUX track is created automatically for me. I add the reverb effect on that track, and then adjust the amount of reverb I want on my audio track by adjusting the amount that I dial in to send. I can send multiple tracks to the same bus/aux but with different amounts, so that allows me to control the depth of different tracks in the mix, i.e., by having more or less reverb. It also saves computer processing, since there is only one reverb effect, and those can be demanding. Even if you choose different reverbs for different tracks, e.g., to have different types of reverb, or different parameter settings, like pre-delay, even if it's the same base reverb type, using the send/bus/aux technique is typical.

I still think you might need to consider some movable/portable room treatment because recording at a distance is going to pick up a lot of room. What you hear in the recording is not just your voice, but the effect of the room, and when it is untreated, can cause a lot of unevenness in the recorded track that is not actually there at the source. Some frequencies will get amplified, and some will get attenuated, depending on the dimensions of the room, and what objects might be in there to trap or reflect sound.

 

[TalismanRich]

Excellent.

I definitely hear the difference between the original and edited versions. They both sound better to me. I'm not familiar with the effects in Cakewalk, but I'm sure that as you play around, you'll find a "sweet spot" that you really like. The nicest thing is that you've go a great starting point. A good performance makes it all a lot easier!

Rich

 

[SteveAlton]

Think as if you were singing live...You would use proper mic technique...I go through the same thing & I am a tenor.

Mix, in your head while recording...meaning you should not need to ride the levels on mixdown because you had perfect mic tednique...

I am sure in OPERA it is even more pronounced

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Think as if you were singing live...You would use proper mic technique...I go through the same thing & I am a tenor.

Mix, in your head while recording...meaning you should not need to ride the levels on mixdown because you had perfect mic tednique...

I am sure in OPERA it is even more pronounced

There isn't really any mic technique in opera, at least not in the sense of adjusting your distance while singing. When the mic is a meter or more away it makes little difference to move in or out a few centimeters.

 

[ecc83]

Direct monitor the live vocal but send it to a reverb in the DAW and send that out to the monitor mix (without any dry vocal coming from the DAW). You can dial back the pre-delay in the reverb if there's too much latency. Obviously that wouldn't work for a series effect like compression, but for parallel effects it's often workable.

Sorry to be late, life got in the way!

Sorry as well to Rich and Keith. YES I know 90% of the time it is best to record 'dry and flat' but circumstances alter case and this is a special one IMHO. Let outline my reasoning once again?

Compression (or limiting). Daria is being inhibited I think by the fear of going into the red. This cannot be fixed in post and I know of no interface under $1000 that has compression AT the mic pre? Therefore a mixer so equipped is required.

Yes again, she can record way down at neg 25 but that is obviously causing more problems.

Reverb. Her room is going to sound awful, small ones always do so she needs to absorb the heck out of it and THAT will make it a dire place to sing in so, needs reverb in cans.

As you say BSG this can be done via software but I an still concerned that even a short delay will be unacceptable in this context?

Dave.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Sorry to be late, life got in the way!

Sorry as well to Rich and Keith. YES I know 90% of the time it is best to record 'dry and flat' but circumstances alter case and this is a special one IMHO. Let outline my reasoning once again?

Compression (or limiting). Daria is being inhibited I think by the fear of going into the red. This cannot be fixed in post and I know of no interface under $1000 that has compression AT the mic pre? Therefore a mixer so equipped is required.

Yes again, she can record way down at neg 25 but that is obviously causing more problems.

Reverb. Her room is going to sound awful, small ones always do so she needs to absorb the heck out of it and THAT will make it a dire place to sing in so, needs reverb in cans.

As you say BSG this can be done via software but I an still concerned that even a short delay will be unacceptable in this context?

Dave.

I would go the vocal channel route rather than a Yamaha mixer. Something with more than one knob for compression. Put the money into features on one input rather than channel count.

But to be honest, having a vocalist monitor their performance with compression is risky. They can strain their voice that way. And I'd rather not commit to compression until I'm very familiar with the situation.

I'm not convinced we have thoroughly explored compression during mixdown.

 

[ecc83]

I would go the vocal channel route rather than a Yamaha mixer. Something with more than one knob for compression. Put the money into features on one input rather than channel count.

But to be honest, having a vocalist monitor their performance with compression is risky. They can strain their voice that way. And I'd rather not commit to compression until I'm very familiar with the situation.

I'm not convinced we have thoroughly explored compression during mixdown.

My interpretation of the situation is that some means of controlling accidental clipping at the recording stage? This is normally done of course by recording at a low enough level such that the peak loudness never gets too hot. This idea was considered unacceptable early in this thread.

Dynamic control will almost certainly be needed for the end use of the works but it is avoiding 'blasting' that is needed upfront AFAICT?

And similarly 'assistance' reverb is desired. This does not have to be recorded but of course some ambience can be carefully added to the final mix.

I am really not qualified to comment further in this company so I shall keep an eye but bow out of further contribution (barring a gross technical error!)

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

Compression (or limiting). Daria is being inhibited I think by the fear of going into the red. This cannot be fixed in post and I know of no interface under $1000 that has compression AT the mic pre? Therefore a mixer so equipped is required.

Dave.

Dave, should you ever run into a situation where someone needs an interface WITH compression, the lowly Tascam 16x08 has both compression and EQ in the interface software. I paid $275 for mine. Its run via DSP chips in the interface itself so it doesn't steal from CPU processing. Alas, it doesn't have reverb integrated into the unit, although the Celesonic 20x20 does. It runs about about $500.



It appears that their newest line, the Series 102i and 208i, also includes the compressor/EQ/Reverb DSP chips.

Now returning to our previous scheduled programming.....

From her comments, I think Daria has a good idea on what she needs, between controlling her voice and either using pre or post processing. Hopefully she can try the mixer route and if that's not working, return the mixer and work with the DAW plugins.

 

[Deleted member 196982]

Steinberg interfaces have DSP FX that can be run in the interface, as well. I just got one (UR44C), but have not tried them yet. If I ever get off my ass to do a live stream I will definitely A/B it against a Behringer X1204USB mixer (probably a rip-off of the cited Yamaha). I got the Berhi for basically free a while back and never used it - currently on loan to someone trying it for voiceovers.

If you want limiting, and it was a real concern, I'd actually be looking at something like a field recorder, e.g., Zoom F8n (which I have, or the discontinued F4, new F6 with 32-bit float recording!), and of course Sound Devices if you've got more budget. Those kinds of recorders' limiters are designed to handle the kind of dynamics that are not typical of home recording.

I don't know if over-taxing a vocalist who is monitoring a compressed vocal is a real issue, but I do think that compression going in, if those recordings are the primary feedback, has some risk of masking technical issues that the artist is concerned about. (A reason I got rid of a compression pedal when I played electric - I felt it was making me technically lazy).

 

[SteveAlton]

There isn't really any mic technique in opera,

I stand corrected....I guess that explains why I don't like OPERA....

 

[rob aylestone]

In fact, for operatic performance, the attachment of a radio mics for the popular live streams and TV gives the performers the hebegeebies, because they hate microphones, and equally gives the sound folk the same feeling - because for them, they have to cope with a simply HUGE dynamic range, from a whisper to a voice that live, needs no amplification even when singing with a 60 piece orchestra going full tilt!!