Compression Question

[Nola]

Hey guys.
My individual tracks are fine, but when certain beats hit they overload the master buss. I think one track causing this problem is this guitar:

https://i.imgur.com/jIlevEb.png

Looking at it, the transients are obvious, but what is the best method for taming a wave like that? A compressor? Manually edit each peak (this seems laborious!)?
Right now I have a compressor on it just trying to lop off those peaks and I set the attack to .1ms. It does an okay job, I guess, but I have the sound of compression on the track now, and I don't care for the sound of compression (especially on guitars). What would you do?
Thanks!

 

[miroslav]

If it's some beats here and there...I would edit by hand.
If it's a lot of them, then...I would still edit by hand... ...it's not as laborious as one may think, but if you're not into that kind of work, it will seem so.
Not saying don't hit it with a comp...but you should weight the +/- of comp VS manual edits.

Another option might be a limiter rather than a comp...one that will only act on the peaks without touching the rest.

Another "trick"...though also done manually...is the offset the various notes/beats that are all hitting at that spot. I'm mean by a few samples...not anything that would mess with the groove. By spreading out the collective transients, you lower the sum level...rather than actually lowering any individual or group level at those spots.
It's something you have to do by ear, as it may also change the sound...sometimes for the better or worse...but I'm talking nuances, nothing major.

 

[Nola]

If it's some beats here and there...I would edit by hand.
If it's a lot of them, then...I would still edit by hand... ...it's not as laborious as one may think, but if you're not into that kind of work, it will seem so.
Not saying don't hit it with a comp...but you should weight the +/- of comp VS manual edits.

Another option might be a limiter rather than a comp...one that will only act on the peaks without touching the rest.

Another "trick"...though also done manually...is the offset the various notes/beats that are all hitting at that spot. I'm mean by a few samples...not anything that would mess with the groove. By spreading out the collective transients, you lower the sum level...rather than actually lowering any individual or group level at those spots.
It's something you have to do by ear, as it may also change the sound...sometimes for the better or worse...but I'm talking nuances, nothing major.

Thanks. Do you use Cubase?
I'm wondering if there is a way to select all the peaks at once and lower them manually. That would be an awesome feature and nix the need for a compressor while also being quick.
Moving the beat is an interesting idea. The snare is hitting as the guitar hits a down stroke, so it's causing the larger sum on the master at times.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

How loud is the track?

 

[Nola]

How loud is the track?

I'm not exactly sure how to measure that, but I ran the "statistics" on the track and it says -29 average RMS and max RMS of 23. Peak amplitude is -10.5db.

 

[Robus]

Those peaks don't look too bad to me. I deal with this pretty constantly too. Kick drums are another culprit. The source can be annoying to track down, as they are often caused by several thinks happening at once, like the kick, bass, and guitar emphasizing a strong beat.

Once you isolate the individual track(s), you could compress. It's better to compress the offending track than have to add more compression later on the master bus. The best thing is to fix them by hand if possible.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I'm not exactly sure how to measure that, but I ran the "statistics" on the track and it says -29 average RMS and max RMS of 23. Peak amplitude is -10.5db.

That's helpful. If peak amplitude is -10.5dB (I assume that's dB full scale) then it doesn't seem like you're overloading the master bus. What makes you think you are overloading it? Just trying to define the problem precisely.

 

[Nola]

That's helpful. If peak amplitude is -10.5dB (I assume that's dB full scale) then it doesn't seem like you're overloading the master bus. What makes you think you are overloading it? Just trying to define the problem precisely.

The guitar part is all downbeat accents that the drum and bass are hitting, so when all hit on certain beats, the master bus clips into the red. The guitar seems to have the worst dynamics. I think it's causing it when it hits with the snare. The bass I played with fingers and it's pretty mellow and the dynamics sound smooth and look smooth in wave form. So, I think it's the combo of the snare and this guitar hitting at the same time.

If you were to use a compressor, would you say a very fast attack to catch those peaks? What about a release time?

PS. Thanks, Robus. I agree hand might be best since I don't like the sound of compression...which leads to the final question....does anyone know a way to manually lower all those peaks in Cubase? Like draw a line across the entire top and just pull them down. That would be awesome! The idea of chopping them up and lowering each beat seems daunting. I manually de-ess, but this seems more annoying for some reason.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Are you talking about the last few lights on the meter that are red or an actual clip light?

 

[Nola]

Are you talking about the last few lights on the meter that are red or an actual clip light?

The clip light. This track doesn't do it alone, but in conjunction with the bass and snare hitting at the same time they clip the master. Turning the snare and guitar down in volume fix it, but the track loses energy.
But the secondary problem is the guitar sounds "choppy" due to those spikes, and I wanted to smooth it out somehow.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

It's a bit weird that it says -10.5dB peak if it's clipping on the meter.

Anyway, if you don't want to manually edit try a limiter. A decent limiter made for mastering would be the best option. Or you could just lower the master fader.

 

[JimmyS1969]

A good limiter will do way better than a stock one. Especially if you know how to use it. Just going to leave it at that...

 

[JohnnyAmato]

By hand is the best option, I do it too, especially on acoustic tracks when tbe first initial strokes/strikes are hard to get perfectly even when tracking. I don't think about them when tracking, I don't want it to take away from the feel of the performance- so I just strum away knowing I'll hand edit peaks later if needed.

This in conjuction with a limiter, set to barely do anything but catch peaks will more than do the job, if you don't like the sound of compression. I like the Waves L2 a lot for this.

An 1176 or LA-3A sound fantastic on acoustics though, as does a Distressor.

How does it sound though, you might want to leave the peaks alone if it sounds good, and just throw a limiter on the master, set to like -0.2. This way you won't actually hear compression or limiting, but you won't clip either.

 

[Nola]

Thanks, Johnny. I've never used or heard of using a limiter on individual tracks. I always assumed they were for the mastering stage. So basically they just lop off the spike so you don't have to do it manually? Is there any draw back to doing it that way vs manual?

When you do it by hand, you slice it and then pull it down? How long does that take on say the acoustic track that you mentioned.

 

[JohnnyAmato]

I just use clip gain, I zoom in to the appropriate spot, place my two edit points, and pull the clip gain line down a db or two until I'm satisfied. Cubase might not work similar to ProTools though.

It takes a little time, but after maybe 30 minutes to an hour, your track is much better, so it's worth the effort.

And yea, it's not uncommon to use limiters on individual tracks, drum busses, etc..

 

[jkuehlin]

Hey guys.
What would you do?
Thanks!

I would do 3 things:

post the track with the source isolated (effects and 2 bus off)
post the track with the source isolated (fully professed)
post the track with everything in your rough mix.

then see if people stop commenting on something they can't even hear. The picture of the waveform only tells anyone anything if you are measuring data on a graph. Its pretty hard for someone to give you meaningful advice if the picture doesn't have audio to go with it.

 

[jkuehlin]

Thanks, Johnny. I've never used or heard of using a limiter on individual tracks. I always assumed they were for the mastering stage. So basically they just lop off the spike so you don't have to do it manually?

There are some instances where is perfectly acceptable to place a limiter and even a brick wall limiter (in some cases) on individual tracks, but you really need a have a good handle on why you're doing it or it can do more damage than good.

If you want to lop off the spike, I would reach for a transient designer first. I use the Waves Smack Attack, the UAD Transient Designer, and the Boz Clipper. There is nothing wrong with doing it manually but it'll produce a different sound. As will a compressor.

Is there any draw back to doing it that way vs manual?

Yes. It can royally fuck up your groove and feel if you try this with a guitar. If you groove sucked to begin with you should have replayed it.

When you do it by hand, you slice it and then pull it down? How long does that take on say the acoustic track that you mentioned.

It completely depends on the track and how consistent it was to begin with. In other words, it depends on the source and the amount of manual re-leveling it needs. Set your tab to transient (or whatever the feature is called in the DAW you use) so you can quickly identify the rogue transients.

 

[Steenamaroo]

If you think you're getting trouble from pairs, like bass+kick, guitars and snare, you can try making the pairs work better together with eq.
If, for example, the body of the snare is very strong in an area that's already dense with guitars, you could massage a little dip into the guitars to make the two sit better together.

I agree with the above, though. Post up some clips so we can hear what you hear.

 

[Deleted member 196982]

My first thought is to retrack it with some attention paid to technique, if it's really the guitar, honestly. But, you might spend some time looking for the specific frequency where the energy is really adding up to cause that clipping, and see if there's some EQ moves as well.

For guitars, I'm lazy, so I'd use a colorless ITB compressor with a pretty high ratio but pay very close attention to the threshold to just hit the peaks, i.e., make it behave more like a limiter, and then use a mix control (or set it up on an aux with a send) to dial in just enough compression to fix the problem without spending time automating each peak. I find automating that kind of stuff tedious and leave it for the really important things, like vocals, or maybe an instrument lead.

 

[Nola]

Thanks, all.
I'm going to try a limiter on it today and see how that goes. If it's bad, I'll go manual. Cubase 9.5 comes with one stock. Jimmy said stock limiters aren't as good as 3rd party. Can anyone elaborate on why the stock one wouldn't do the job? And also, any recommendations on a good limiter if I decided to go 3rd party? Thanks!