Budget USB interface also for general use? (headphone output power)

[spitzer]

Greets

I've been looking for a small interface for my home computer, mainly to record electric guitar. So far I have on my list Steinberg UR22 mk2, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 gen2, Presonus Audiobox USB 96 and... Behringer UMC202HD. They are in the same price range and externally (meaning "it looks like") they have everything I need.

All the reviews I've found have mostly covered things like the input preamps and such. However since I would ideally like for this interface to also replace my other (integrated and PCI) soundcards for all general use (LISTENING) I'm also interested in the outputs and especially the headphone jack, since I almost exclusively use headphones.

I've found specs for some of those interfaces but they are hard to interpret, some have the figures expressed with different names or in different units etc. For example I found a document that said the UR22 outputs 3.8 mW x 2 "nominal" and 6x2 "maximum" power from it's headphone output. What does that even mean? How can I figure out whether that is enough to drive my headphones? I need output power at least equal to my Asus Xonar (which is supposed to have some kind of an integrated headphone amp) that specifies an output power of 1 Vrms/3Vp-p with the hp impedance only being described as "optimized for 32-150 Ohm". From what I have tested by the way, the volume level is pretty much identical to that of the integrated Realtek 889. The headphones I currently mostly use are AKG K182s, I also have a pair of DT770s (80 Ohm).

With regard to the inputs I mainly just need a nice, clean signal. The Realtek is horrible, the Xonar is quite good for recording but there are other big problems with both of them, mainly the lack of direct monitoring. My larger setup not at home is built around an ADA8000 and the sound quality is plenty good enough for me so if the UMC202HD mic/line pre's are of similar quality, I would be happy with that. That small Behringer has more features than the others and who knows, maybe at some point I would realize I actually would have wanted those pad switches or something.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Which is the most stable, has the best drivers? Although again, emphasis on the headphone output power.

 

[ecc83]

The most solid of that bunch IMHO is the UR22. I would not sweat headphone drive capability too much, most AIs will deliver more than you should be listening to for more than a few minutes.

Have to add of course! Do look at the NI KA6. Not exactly budget but good!

Dave.

 

[mjbphotos]

I agree with Dave - don't sweat the headphone output. If you do decide you need more power/volume, there are some very inexpensive headphone amps available.

 

[spitzer]

Thanks.

I know headphone amps exist... I was just kind of specifically wondering would I really need one with these USB interfaces? This is the one thing that is usually not covered at all in reviews. Besides, I have enough clutter on my desk as it is and I'd like to keep things tidy.

The trouble I have currently is that I need headroom (or whatever you should call it). Most mainstream stuff, music, games, youtube work fine at 40% of maximum volume but guess what happens when I import a 6-track project with the tracks recorded at -20 peak? Exactly, I crank the volume up to 100% and still cannot hear anything.

That being said, I could of course get a separate headphone amp (I actually have a 19" wide 4-channel one currently not in use but I wouldn't want that one on my home desk!) if I have to but my original question still stands. What does it mean when the headphone output is 40 Ohms and "3.5 mW per channel"? I've been doing hours and hours of reading and I cannot figure this stuff out. For one thing, I was under the impression that headphone amps should ideally be close to 0 in impedance. The Xonar's output is 10 Ohm. Then again, the UR22's output impedance is 40 Ohm and the Behringer HA400's (small, cheap headphone amp) is 80 Ohm. I was also under the impression that generally speaking, lower impedance headphones should be louder... but my K182's are lower impedance and a LOT more sensitive than my DT770's and their output level is identical. I know it's about more than impedance but what's going on? I also read that there would be some kind of power loss if the impedances of the output and the headphones themselves are too close, does that mean my 32 Ohm K182's would not "fit" a 40 Ohm output basically at all?

Still accepting thoughts and recommendations! So far... one vote for the UR22. (could go for the UR242 btw, and I think the Behringer I meant originally was UMC204HD, not 202).

ALSO BTW... A few years ago a friend with no recording experience at all was looking for a simple recording solution for solo vocals and basically off the top of my hat I said get the Steinberg CI1 (completely based on the specs). Since I'm guessing the UR22 would be mostly similar, I've been wanting to borrow that CI1 for 15 minutes so I could test it myself but I can't reach that friend now.

 

[spitzer]

One more thing... I found a user review of the UMC204HD mentioning "these Midas preamp are FAR superior to the preamps in the ADA8000". Now to me, that says they must be spectacular. Like I mentioned, I own an ADA8000 for the past 10+ years and I don't even understand how that could sound "bad" to anyone. If you're looking for "bad", try an integrated Realtek's Line in with it's noise floor of -50, inherently muddy tone, and maximum res of 16 bits. Even a "pro" friend of mine, who prefers expensive and heavy gear, said the ADA8000 is plenty good and actually borrowed it once when he needed more inputs for a project of his.

Granted, I don't use or have individual microphones that cost 500 bucks (I think the NT-1000 is the most expensive mic I have and I rarely even use it), my studio is far from ideal design-wise and I don't have expensive monitoring gear either... just wanted to express my perspective here I guess. Also, I would probably mostly use the interface at home for "demoing" purposes, since it would have to be direct input electric guitar. Can't have a 100W tube stack and mike it in the apartment for obvious reasons.

So how do the Steinberg pre's compare? Or the others?

 

[Pinky]

Audio specs are notoriously vague and skewed (not just home recording, general home audio, car audio, nearly all retail audio hardware fields).

Another vote for getting the interface that suits you best based on critical technical needs (most you list are comparable to the others). There are plenty of headphone amps available. Apart from pouring over reviews and forum posts like you already are, there's no other easy way of knowing for sure which headphone output will perform best for your needs until you buy it and try.

Sweetwater is very accommodating on returns, so perhaps buy the interface from someplace that will not rape you on a restocking fee and keep buying/sending back until you find the right solution. Additionally, you could email Sweetwater sales and they may be able to guide you to an appropriate interface based on what their sales engineers have learned/gotten feedback from their customers.

 

[spitzer]

Thank you for the reply.

You can say that again, especially about specs being vague. There's always something... I guess it's true that ultimately I'm just going to have to GUESS whether a device would be suitable or not.

Yet one more thing came to mind... How much latency do these things usually have? That's a factor even WITH "zero latency" (direct) monitoring if I'm not mistaken, is it not? There's the time it takes for the signal to come back from the recording software to the interface and to the headphone jack, at the least.
Also I might at some point like to try playing (MIDI) keyboards through some VST thing, and THAT would require a total latency of what... maybe around 5 ms to be comfortable? Good drivers + configuration software (I'm running Windows 10 64-bit) would of course be important in general. Are ASIO drivers better than something else, and which ones do they typically even provide?

More thoughts, experiences, recommendations?

 

[ecc83]

Spitzer, let us first dispose of the pre amp issue. The fact is that the ADA800 pres, from what I have read were not that good in terms of noise/gain (the two are inextricably linked). Many people have reported that but have commented that they are 'good enough' for a lot of basic work, e.g. micc'ing an amp even with an SM57. Used with almost any kind of capacitor mic they will do most things.

The pre amps on the latest crop of AIs are much better in terms of noise/gain because, IT COSTS NEXT TO BUGGERALL TO DO IT! Building a pre close to the physical limits for noise TODAY costs little more than making a poor one. Thus, all the latest AIs have excellent pre and the Steinberg is noted to be one of the best.

Headphone levels: You have answered your own question and pointed out the design 'omission/flaw' in just about every AI almost regardless of price.
The HP AMP might have adequate power deliver when signals are at -6dFS, in fact it might be damagingly loud. But drop the level by 20dB and things are obviously quieter ESPECIALLY if you have competing noise in the room! The fix would be a 25dB gain boost in the headphone circuit but no AI to my knowledge gives you that and I dare say they would get complaints from noobs that don't understand 'Gain Staging' because things would clip and distort at higher levels. "You can't please all........!"

The Impedance Thing: Headphone amps have to (try!) to cater for a wide variation in load Z. The lowest cans I have read about are 12R (some were 8R but no longer?) 32R is common because it works well with phones and pods. Historically cans were 600 Ohms and such would be very quiet on most AIs. It is inevitable therefore that a design choice is made to have amplifiers that can cope with a certain range of load impedances.

Headphone amps with ZERO opZ? There are some and it is a school of thought but not going to be seen in budget kit because such an amplifier would need very sophisticated short circuit protection and that costs, A LOT.

Some peeps bang on about 'Damping Factor' They conveniently forget that headphones invariably have a DC resistance about equal to their rated Z. Anyone familiar with Ohms Law can see that a zero source Z will be useless if you put 32 Ohms + in the circuit!

Bottom line Spitz'. You are not going to find ANY AI that can drive cans from a neg 20 track to levels useful to a drummer, certainly not under $500 anyway! It is a fact of life that when on a budget you have to be inventive and THAT means a bit of clutter sometime!

Any of the AI so far mentioned are fine. In fact I don't know of an AI with BAD pre amps?

I see you have mentioned 'latency'. I think the UR22 is quite good, cannot speak for the others but again, there is that word? BUDGET! The KA6 knocks chunks off the rest for low latency and super stable drivers but it is another $50 or so. The headphone amp WON'T blow you away but we have covered that!

Dave.

 

[spitzer]

ecc83, thank you for your detailed reply.

About the mic pre's... I just took a quick look at a few (mic'd, acoustic) tracks I have here, recorded with the ADA8000. They seem to bottom at -70 to -80 and that's INCLUDING room noise. Comparing that to let's say my desktop PC's integrated Realtek, which records -74 dB of noise from the line input with nothing plugged in, I consider even the OLD Behringer quite good I'm still going to use the ADA8000 anyway since I record a lot of drums and I need the channels. Like I said, I've had that ADA8000 for a long time, close to 15 years... back then it wasn't cheap either and there were no alternatives anywhere near that price range. Those were the days.

Anyway, it's good to know I won't need to worry about the preamps at all then. I guess now my problem changes to 'Which headphone amp to buy'? Would something like a Behringer HA400 have enough voltage and otherwise have decent characteristics to properly drive my K182's? And THEN there's the problem that I might need more than one input in the amp, since my keyboards hp out is also too weak to drive my phones... *sigh*

 

[ecc83]

Ah now! When you speak of, "A headphone amp with more than one (stereo) input" you are really meaning 'Mixer"!

"Budget" mixers with USB recording capability have come on in L&Bs in the last couple of years of so. Folks such as Allen & Heath and Soundcraft make excellent 24 bit devices that can really replace the AI in many respects. Go up a bit in price and you can get multitrack recording, often 'PC free' i.e. recording to a USB stick or external hard drive. Handy for location work? One possible downside? You mentioned "keyboard"? If MIDI is a factor, none of the mixers have DINs AFAIK.

Personally I think you are in "hard place and rock" territory here! You want cheap(ish) LOUD and compact, beeejew and tidy. I think you are going to need a 4input AI (KA6!) and a small mixer to collate the signal feeds. Most mixers can drive headphones to ear damaging levels...PLEASE do lose sight of that last factor in your quest for POWER!
.......................OR, one of the new generation 24 bit mixers.


Dave.

 

[Mack Caster]

And THEN there's the problem that I might need more than one input in the amp, since my keyboards hp out is also too weak to drive my phones... *sigh*

I use the Power-play Pro 8 pictured below and love it. It has two inputs so you can feed both sources you are needing. I run one from my AI and one from my mixer. I simply push the input selector on the front panel for what device I am listening to. For $149.00, it will power whatever you need. If you have 7 buddies show up, they can bring their own cans and listen as well.

FEATURES

• 8-channel headphone distribution amplifier
• Eight totally independent stereo high-power amplifier sections
• 2 separate main inputs
• 2 headphone outputs per channel
• Dedicated direct input for each channel
• Highest sonic quality with virtually all types of headphones

View attachment 100859

 

[ecc83]

I use the Power-play Pro 8 pictured below and love it. It has two inputs so you can feed both sources you are needing. I run one from my AI and one from my mixer. I simply push the input selector on the front panel for what device I am listening to. For $149.00, it will power whatever you need. If you have 7 buddies show up, they can bring their own cans and listen as well.

FEATURES

• 8-channel headphone distribution amplifier
• Eight totally independent stereo high-power amplifier sections
• 2 separate main inputs
• 2 headphone outputs per channel
• Dedicated direct input for each channel
• Highest sonic quality with virtually all types of headphones

View attachment 100859

Err? He's after 'neat' and bijoux' Mack!

Dave.

 

[Mack Caster]

Err? He's after 'neat' and bijoux' Mack!

Dave.

I have no idea what your post means Dave and it is the first word I have tried to look up, without results. It seems as if you have "Stumped" the dictionary.

There are no results for: bijoux definition and, but we are adding new words daily.

 

[ecc83]

I have no idea what your post means Dave and it is the first word I have tried to look up, without results. It seems as if you have "Stumped" the dictionary.

bijou


/ˈbiːʒuː/


noun
archaic

plural noun: bijoux




a jewel or trinket.
But the term has come to mean anything small and 'precious' in both the cash value and/or 'camp' sense.

'Neat' I guess you have suss'ed? See, the OP did not want even the dinky HA400 and its attendant cables! I think he would baulk at a hulking, full 1U rack unit!

But yes Mack, a perfectly sound (!) suggestion. OP is NOT going to do it all in one box. Well! The new Sound Devices MixPre-3 would be superb but 1,000 bucks! (see current SoS) .

"Two Great Nations" eh?

Dave.

 

[mjbphotos]

I just realized I need something like that Powerplay - but smaller (not so many outputs). FOr a ehadphone amp, having the jacks on the back is a PITA unless you are running to a remote panel in a tracking room (IMO).
What I need, though, is something with two (stereo) inputs (from my Tascam AI and interwebbie computer) to 3 outputs - my regular Gateway box computer speakers, my JBL monitors (would like balanced, but not required) and the old Sony amp I use to power the cheap 6" box bookshelf speakers iI occasionally use for referencing.
The input would be easy with either of my mixers (not that I want to take up desk space with either), but not the output choices.

 

[CoolCat]

Greets

1) I've been looking for a small interface for my home computer, mainly to record electric guitar. >

2) (LISTENING) I'm also interested in the outputs and especially the headphone jack, since I almost exclusively use headphones.
2a) The headphones I currently mostly use are AKG K182s, I also have a pair of DT770s (80 Ohm).

3) With regard to the inputs I mainly just need a nice, clean signal.
* you say the Behringer ADA8000 sound is good enough.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Which is the most stable, has the best drivers? Although again, emphasis on the headphone output power.

probably about anything will do guitars clean...toss in a good free amp sim.

Headphone amps, my 2 cents is they work or they suck, my interface headphone amp sounded close to my Grace Design headphone amp but I also have the Behringer Powerplay 8channel?6ch?headphone amp mentioned too and its a cool unit and was only $60 used. Sounded damn good though for playbacks etc. Has some good I/O options. I have the various headphone ohms too....32...28...80...250...they all work ok, though the volume drops noticeably with the higher headphone ohm, so a beefier headphone amp can help with the higher ohm sets.

always outgrew the 2 input interfaces quickly, and believe in getting one with more inputs.

also prefer a walwart/real ac power not USB. Running the whole interface with 500ma of USB power to the headphone amp, preamps, phantom power, and the rest is a lot of stuff needing to share the small 5vdc/ 500ma. some units can do both, USB and/or wall power for portability and home.

 

[ecc83]

Take note of Cool Cat's comment about higher impedance headphones being quieter.
This means the specification (there are "lies, damned lies and specifications") of output power for cans amps is a bit useless. What you need to know is volts rms into load X . The high Z cans need higher voltages and that does rule out most bus powered AIs IF you want very loud.

The cheaper mixers run on probably + and -12V and that should give more than adequate drive. Better mixers run + and -15V and the really pro jobbies, two 17/18 volts rails.

Dave.

 

[spitzer]

ecc83: Spot on with that "hard place and rock" comment... it does look like a product with feature/spec set I would like simply does not currently exist. It seems like the thing with the current generation devices is 'you can plug it into your iPad and do this or that' which is of zero interest to me.

By the way I said nothing against the HA400, and that HA8000 is precisely the unit I have in my away-studio that's not currently in use. I have actually been researching those a bit, along with the MicroAmp 800 (also a Behringer, kind of inbetween those two). There are still things that puzzle me, one of them being the impedance thing. The HA400 specs say: "Input: 100 K Ohms" and "Phones out: approx. 80 Ohms". For the MA800 the input is 10-20 K Ohms and the rest is specified very differently: "Phones out: min. 100 Ohms" and "Amplifier: min. output imp. 47 Ohms". What in the world does any of that mean? Minimum 100 Ohms, minimum 47 Ohms? So what happens if I got an interface with an unknown output impedance and connected it to an MA800? Would there already be distortion there because of an impedance mismatch? And after THAT, what happens when I plug my phones in the MA800's output? Will it drive them since they are only 32 ohms and if so, what will they sound like? I also came across some reviews (at "gearslutz" if I remember right) of the HA8000, all of them saying either that the unit is "shit" or "only usable for distribution, not for any kind of actual listening". I'm not an engineer and I only understand this stuff at a very basic level, but I'm learning since... it seems I HAVE to. This is the one area where I'm REALLY lacking in knowledge, I WANT to understand what headphone amp would be "good enough" and WHY.

mjbphotos: You might find that Microamp 800 interesting, it has 2 inputs and 4 outputs.

CoolCat: Is that UMC404HD the unit you have? My main headphones currently are AKG K182's (32 Ohm/112 dB@1V) so low impedance here... btw. according to a user comment on youtube (YouTube) the 404 DOES also work with only USB power. Maybe the external PS option is there if you for some reason want to avoid drawing the power through the USB, dunno. From what I've gathered the lower-end UMC's (202 and 204) are basically the same unit, just with less inputs/outputs.

By the way this doesn't feel like the right subforum for discussing details of headphones and headphone amplifiers... but there's no headphone/monitoring forum on this site (either that or I'm blind). Feels like there should be something like that, since there is one dedicated to microphones...

 

[DanR]

could go for the UR242 btw

I have the UR242 (AC powered) and it works fine for me, recording and headphones.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Audio specs are notoriously vague and skewed (not just home recording, general home audio, car audio, nearly all retail audio hardware fields).

Another vote for getting the interface that suits you best based on critical technical needs (most you list are comparable to the others). There are plenty of headphone amps available. Apart from pouring over reviews and forum posts like you already are, there's no other easy way of knowing for sure which headphone output will perform best for your needs until you buy it and try.

Sweetwater is very accommodating on returns, so perhaps buy the interface from someplace that will not rape you on a restocking fee and keep buying/sending back until you find the right solution. Additionally, you could email Sweetwater sales and they may be able to guide you to an appropriate interface based on what their sales engineers have learned/gotten feedback from their customers.

+1 to Sweetwater. Their customer support is awesome. Just ask them to throw in mic cables with a $400 purchase. They will. And they have great tech support as well.