Who to trust? ears or ..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Gillette
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Sure, it makes sense to try some "cleaner" power (maybe that is the reason why my Gain knob doesn't have much power so I have to turn it pretty much 3 o'clock to have some decent signal)

Before that, just one more thing.

You said this

"Now, your keyboard has line outputs so if you had an audio interface with a spare pair of line inputs you could hook up that way.

If this keyboard does midi control + data via USB you could carry on using that without issue."

Let's say that even new interface may have some noise problem if PC's usb power isn't enough.
And let's say that some USB hub would be useful for that interface too and hopefully solve that issue.
Then it would be ok to 1) hook up my keyboard to the new interface with let's say ..TS cables (out/in) and to 2) left old keyboard connected to the PC via his USB cable (for data connection) ?

Or it's better to 3) forget about its USB cable and look for the interface that has both Line inputs and Midi inputs (so I can hook up keyboard to the interface via midi cable) ?

I'am asking this because of possible drivers conflicts
 
Gillette said:
Sure, it makes sense to try some "cleaner" power (maybe that is the reason why my Gain knob doesn't have much power so I have to turn it pretty much 3 o'clock to have some decent signal)
Click to expand...
There shouldn't be any relationship.
That's just evidence that the preamps in your keyboard don't have a huge amount of gain, which is pretty normal.

Gillette said:
Let's say that even new interface may have some noise problem if PC's usb power isn't *(clean)* enough.
And let's say that some USB hub would be useful for that interface too and hopefully solve that issue.
Then it would be ok to 1) hook up my keyboard to the new interface with let's say ..TS cables (out/in) and to 2) left old keyboard connected to the PC via his USB cable (for data connection) ?

Or it's better to 3) forget about its USB cable and look for the interface that has both Line inputs and Midi inputs (so I can hook up keyboard to the interface via midi cable) ?

I'am asking this because of possible drivers conflicts
Click to expand...

Either 1+2 or 3 is fine.

In either scenario your computer sees one audio interface.
The midi data is either presented to your new AI via 5 pin, or directly to the computer via USB, but I'm not aware of any reason that there should be a difference.
 
I understand.

The strange thing in whole issue is that I thought the noise comes from "to much power" :)

Now it turned out that it likely could be the opposite.

I've never used 9v adaptor that's for sure. I even don't have one..because did'nt need it.
The keyboard works even with the PC turned off.
It seems that USB in PC has some power even when computer is not turned on, so I didn't need to connect an other power supply to the keyboard itself..
 
Ah ok, gotcha. No worries.

Noise from power supplies is really common. Every audio device needs to have various methods of filtering so that this noise doesn't pollute your signal path.
Sometimes cheaper devices just don't have adequate filtering whether through cheaping out or through assuming that a third party supply is going to be well filtered.

The result is some kind of audible buzz/hum/interference.
It's always nice to 100% prove something but that's where I'm putting my money. ^


It's not about whether there's too much or too little power, but how clean that power supply is.

There's not really an relationship to your gain control and any background hiss that you may or may not hear by turning up the gain.
That's a whole different set of problems.

A fancy dedicated mic preamp might have lots of gain and low noise so you don't hear any hiss, but that's not really related to the power supply; At least not in a way that's relevant here.
 
Thanks a lot for your effort to understand and help me so far :)

Tomorrow I'll post here some update info, when i try a powered usb hub, so we'll see if the noise is gone
 
Gillette said:
Does one trust his ears (so he can hear the noise or latency) or the sound itself is ok, but he knows that something isn't perfect because some software is showing some deviations from the expected parameters ?
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You are in good hands with [MENTION=43272]Steenamaroo[/MENTION] and I am not going to throw my hat in the ring unless requested, so I am going to address the very important question you asked above, that has nothing to do with your issues. It is always your ears.

As time goes by you will start to notice things that may not sound right. It is at this time your software, (DAW) will help you pinpoint the problem. When you do this enough, you will know what it is automatically and than you will use your DAW to correct it. Time, repetition and practice, will be what "trains your ear".

Before you know it, you will be at your buddy's house when he is playing or mixing saying things like, "yo dude, you got some heavy mud going on around that 200hz cycle" or "lookie here, this will sound much better if you set a high pass filter around the 95hz". Yep! Time, repetition and practice. :thumbs up:
 
You should be able to use the keyboard via USB for MIDI input (only) at the same time as a standard audio interface used through USB for audio input/output. That's the way I do it with a Casio keyboard and my Tascam interface.
 
Hi to all, here's a little update after plugged USB into the powered usb hub.

test by Gillette Wilkinson | Free Listening on SoundCloud

this is recording with vst on (as you can hear, the same thing happens: the noise occurs as I tuch the string. And this is with Noise Gate On)

test2 no vst by Gillette Wilkinson | Free Listening on SoundCloud

this one is recorded dry, with no vst . At first with Gain half way up, then with Gain all the way up.

test3 noise gate by Gillette Wilkinson | Free Listening on SoundCloud

This one is with vst. At first without the Noise Gate, then with the Noise Gate.

So I reckon that powered USB hub didn't help much..I've even tried different usb inputs, but to me it sound pretty much teh same as before..?
 
Gillette said:
I've found this, so maybe it has something to do with that Hi-Z thing?
Click to expand...

Huston, we may have a WINNER! If your sound card, keyboards or any other input you use does not have a Hi-Z/Instrument input, your signal is not a proper signal for decent tone coming from the gee-tar and you release the dreaded snake who as you are playing is singing backup vocals and all he has learned so far is "hhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssssssssssss. $54.00 Sweetwater.

View attachment 100816

I own four of em and never had a problem Built like an M60 A1 Tank. From Sweetwarer.

"Here's the DI you'll find wherever pros are using them! Whirlwind built the IMP 2 direct box to give you ultra-reliable performance, day in and day out. If you're running live sound, engineering a studio session, or making sure your rig is ready for the stage, then you need this DI! The IMP 2 converts a line- or instrument-level unbalanced signal to a low-impedance, mic-level balanced signal, so you know you're getting what you need from the stage or the recording room into the mixer or interface. This box is built road-tough, so you know it's with you for the long haul!
 
Fascinating thread. Over my head.

But on the ear thing, I think I am hearing two separate effects: a hiss in some clips and a hum in others, depending on whether there is input. They sound to me as if their source may be different.

I am agog here. Please continue.
 
Mack Caster said:
Huston, we may have a WINNER! If your sound card, keyboards or any other input you use does not have a Hi-Z/Instrument input, your signal is not a proper signal for decent tone coming from the gee-tar and you release the dreaded snake who as you are playing is singing backup vocals and all he has learned so far is "hhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssssssssssss. $54.00 Sweetwater.

View attachment 100816

I own four of em and never had a problem Built like an M60 A1 Tank. From Sweetwarer.

"Here's the DI you'll find wherever pros are using them! Whirlwind built the IMP 2 direct box to give you ultra-reliable performance, day in and day out. If you're running live sound, engineering a studio session, or making sure your rig is ready for the stage, then you need this DI! The IMP 2 converts a line- or instrument-level unbalanced signal to a low-impedance, mic-level balanced signal, so you know you're getting what you need from the stage or the recording room into the mixer or interface. This box is built road-tough, so you know it's with you for the long haul!
Click to expand...

So, one stupid question: better to get that whirlwind thing, or new audio-interface with Hi-Z input? :o
 
Neither.

"Channel two has a 1/4” high-impedance instrument input and isdesigned to accept signals from an electric guitar, bass, or other high-impedancesource."

Isolating the power supply was the last step in proving that the thing is just noisy.
Well, the last last step would be to check someone else's keyboard of the same model but it seems conclusive enough.

I think it's real interface time. :)

The only exception I can think of is if you can prove to yourself 100% that channel one has no noise at all.*
If that's the case the a DI box into channel one would work but...I don't know; I'd take it as a hint to move up the ladder. :)


*It can happen. Noise floor on one of my mobile interfaces is higher on channel two and there's a whine component with it.
I'm assuming it's down to nothing more than physical proximity to the internal power supply.
 
Steenamaroo said:
The only exception I can think of is if you can prove to yourself 100% that channel one has no noise at all.*
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know how to do that actually..Because if I choose channel one (in Reaper) nothing happens, as if the guitar isn't plugged in.
The only channel I can work with guitar is the channel two (and stereo)
 
kickingtone said:
Fascinating thread. Over my head.
Click to expand...

Some instruments need to have their impedance altered to provide a clean signal path. Not like turning the output level down type of thing, but rather a "going from a caterpillar to a butterfly" type of thing. High Z, is a reference to two things. In the audio world, "Z" is a reference to "Impedance". As taken from Sweetwater.

Measured in ohms, impedance refers to the resistance of a circuit or device to AC (alternating current). Such an AC circuit could be any two audio devices connected together, like a speaker and an amp, passing audio signals.
Click to expand...

Since there are different types, the "High" is just that. If it were "Low", then it is referred to as "Low Z". Good amps, soundboards, Audio Interfaces and mixers, have a input jack with a switch or button to change a High Z input to a Low Z input which is what is needed for recording. Now, if you use a mic to capture the audio, all of this goes out the window! ;-)

Gillette said:
So, one stupid question: better to get that whirlwind thing, or new audio-interface with Hi-Z input? :o
Click to expand...

That is hard to answer as I have no idea what the end results are that you are seeking. The DI box is great for taking it with you if you ever want to go some where and jamb. That's why I have four. As I do not play, if you come to where I am recording without one, and all the mics are being used, you don't plug into my system.

I have a small Alesis Multimix 4 and 8 channel USB FX mixers. Both have the high z input jacks. I love them. I can do just about anything I want to with a SM 57 and my Tascam DR-40. The clip below was from a night club in DC around 2013 as best I can remember. Don't know his name, everybody just called him Shredder.

I used 2 sm57s. One was about 3 inches from the bottom right side of his amp and the other was about six inches above facing straight down. The crowd was going ballistic. The clip is raw except for noise reduction using Reaper and the FI/FOs. Put your seat belt on and make sure your volume is down when you start. It'll make your ears bleed if ya got the right system.

View attachment 100823

Alesis 4 Banger.

View attachment 100824

Myself, as long as a mixer has clean pre amps and is USB compatible with its own dedicated ASIO file, I would pick them over a one or two channel Audio Interface every day of the week. But than again, I would not trade my Tascam US 16 x 8 for anything!
 
Gillette said:
Well, I don't know how to do that actually..Because if I choose channel one (in Reaper) nothing happens, as if the guitar isn't plugged in.
The only channel I can work with guitar is the channel two (and stereo)
Click to expand...

Channel one picks hardware input one, which is the microphone input.
A DI box would want to plug in to a microphone level input so if you go the DI box route, you'd switch to channel one.

I'd want to make sure channel one is silent first.

An unterminated input will usually be noisy as hell so you'd need a microphone and a quiet room to be able to test properly.

Like I say, I'd probably just go interface at this stage but, then, I don't know your future plans.
If upgrading for quality or expanding for more I/O is on your mind, here's a good excuse to spend $$. :p
 
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