Help with mic'ing/recording acoustic guitar

[spantini]

Question for you, Mack:

I downloaded the SWS Extensions. This went directly into my Download folder - not Reaper's. Does this have to go into Reaper's plugins folder?

 

[Mack Caster]

No. You should just need to click on the exe file for the extensions download and follow the prompts. It will find reaper on its own.

 

[spantini]

Done.

 

[ecc83]

Some DAWs (attached) do give meters that go above 0dB (Full Scale) but I don't see how that is useful since 0dBFS corresponds to the maximum level the converter can handle, i.e. all the bits are used up.

So, 0dBFS is the maximum output of the AI (or else it should be specified as '0dBFF =X dBu) and quite clearly you cannot record to any higher level, unlike tape where 0vu might be the 'normal' max but you can go a bit hotter if you can live with/want the extra distortion and HF squash.

Tape machines have an operating level, say +4dBu and maybe 6dB headroom over that. A mixer would be OL at +4 but could easily have a headroom of +22dBu. If a Passive PA speaker was rated at 300W you would be VERY lucky to have even 6dB of headroom!

Generally, -18dBFS is taken as the 'operating level' for DAWs because 0dFS is the absolute tops. What those figures deliver from the AI only you can tell from measurement, rarely do you find it in maker's speccs!

Dave.

 

[spantini]

Thanks, Dave. Your attachment is a meter I can more easily relate to. I can see both in there: the numbers I'm used to seeing, and the colored areas for the actual useful/safe levels. I can live with a meter like that.

 

[ecc83]

Thanks, Dave. Your attachment is a meter I can more easily relate to. I can see both in there: the numbers I'm used to seeing, and the colored areas for the actual useful/safe levels. I can live with a meter like that.

Happy to oblige mate but like I said, signal will/should never go above zero!

Dave.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Happy to oblige mate but like I said, signal will/should never go above zero!

Dave.

Dave's replied better than I could have.
I don't know what scales or reference points are being used; All I would have said is that 0db on the DAWs meters = the maximum signal that can be processed.
Attempting to exceed that just clips your audio peaks off - flat.

It's not like analog distortion where you can push it for flavour - It's a line at which your signal gets wrecked.

 

[Mack Caster]

Happy to oblige mate but like I said, signal will/should never go above zero!

Dave.

Dave's replied better than I could have.
I don't know what scales or reference points are being used; All I would have said is that 0db on the DAWs meters = the maximum signal that can be processed.
Attempting to exceed that just clips your audio peaks off - flat.

It's not like analog distortion where you can push it for flavour - It's a line at which your signal gets wrecked.

It all has to do with mathematics, 1s and 0s. When it comes down to digital verses analog, 2 + 2 no longer = 4. Digital audio can never pass 0dbs without clipping while analog can. I apologize to you both as I can not explain the math behind this statement other than to say, I was so bright as a child that my Father would call me son.
Now, you know that's funny.

 

[spantini]

It all has to do with mathematics... I was so bright as a child that my Father would call me son.
Now, you know that's funny.

Now that's funny right there. I don't care what they say.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Generally speaking: 0dBVU = +4dBu = -18dBFS. In the analog world you (usually) aimed for 0dB on the meter. In digital you (usually) aim for -18.

Exception 1: Mackie mixers had meters calibrated for 0dBVU = 0dBu instead of the usual 0dBVU = +4dBu. If you have read your manual you would know that and compensate.

Exception 2: Some converters translate +4dBu to something different than -18dBFS. Usually it's still between -16dBFS and -20dBFS. A couple of dB either way won't matter.

 

[Mack Caster]

Generally speaking: 0dBVU = +6dBu = -18dBFS. In the analog world you (usually) aimed for 0dB on the meter. In digital you (usually) aim for -18.

Exception 1: Mackie mixers had meters calibrated for 0dBVU = 0dBu instead of the usual 0dBVU = +6dBu. If you have read your manual you would know that and compensate.

Exception 2: Some converters translate +6dBu to something different than -18dBFS. Usually it's still between -16dBFS and -20dBFS. A couple of dB either way won't matter.

Reapers internal loudness analyzer is off by -3dbs using the SWS Extension. Do you have any incite on why this is?

 

[spantini]

Generally speaking: 0dBVU = +6dBu = -18dBFS....

Alright! Now that helps me calibrate.

I Googled the different decibel types and found a lot more. Thanks again!

I will say this - after reading some of the Googled responses on this subject, I'm just happy to keep it as simple as do not go over 0.0dB.. )

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Reapers internal loudness analyzer is off by -3dbs using the SWS Extension. Do you have any incite on why this is?

Actually, there are two standard references for RMS, 0dBFS peak square wave and 0dBFS peak sine wave. Square waves have 3dB more RMS level than sine waves of the same peak level. When square wave is the reference the number will be 3dB larger (apparently lower level but not really) than when sine wave is the reference for the same audio. Neither is wrong, they're just different, and it helps to know which reference is being used by the measurement tool in question.

I went through this confusion a few years ago when Sound Forge measured different levels from the TT DR meter.

 

[Mack Caster]

I went through this confusion a few years ago when Sound Forge measured different levels from the TT DR meter.

I have been at this for 6 months now. I have just about every sing calibrated sine wave file known to mankind. I have checked my meters 12 ways to Sunday. At this time, if I import a file into reaper and check the loudness, it is within a + or - 0.2dbs with the Orban meter I use for everything.

Yet when I change any volume levels within reaper and check it again, it is a dead on a 3db difference to the - side. My work around is to simply add a +3 dbs. I have spent time on the phone with Orban, but reaper has no advice on this issue. It used to drive me crazy. Now I just go with the flow.

 

[spantini]

My recording area is very reflective, which may be affecting my mic's recording levels. I'm going to build a 1-sq ft cubicle and line it with thick cloth - to shield the back of the mic. See if that helps.

 

[spantini]

I have taken a plastic box, wrapped it in a heavy bath towel, turned it up on it's side on a 45' angle, pushed the towel into the opening to create a depression, laid my AT2020 inside on the lower edge at 45' to the box - which makes the mic present to me horizontally in-line with my guitar neck. I position the guitar so it presents only the neck near the 12th fret - the rest of the guitar is "around the corner" of the towel-wrapped box's opening. This also helped to reduce the thin pick noises.

This has helped me gain additional signal when recording. I have patched together a rough image of my setup.



I would like to add that the mic's interface input gain is lower than I used before, yet this mic does pick up the littlest noises. This time around, those noises were all coming from me moving in my chair, and the A/C I didn't bother to turn off. I'm making progress, thanks to all of you who have commented.

 

[spantini]

Do you like to use new strings when recording acoustic guitar? Do you like to play the jangle off them first?

The track I just recorded.. the strings are fairly new - I put them on about a month ago, but I've only played them about ten times. Still, they sounded a little muffled on playback.

On playback, I added Reaper's JS: Presence EQ at these settings:


That got rid of the muddiness without making it too bright - actually gave it a slightly smoother sound. Pleasing to my ears, but my ears aren't attuned to this stuff yet. What sounds great to me is too bright to your ears; from past comments on a remix I uploaded. That's ok. I need to learn your way, then that will become my measuring stick.

In the .mp3 I've attached, there is some room noise at the beginning. That's because I didn't bother to shut off the A/C. When I record for real that won't be there.

 

[ecc83]

I will be interested to hear your noise floor with the AC off! As it stands you have a noise floor of -35dBFS!

But (with apologies to Bob Newheart!) Too LOUD man! That clip is averaging around -9dBFS with a max of just -1.4dBFS. This is NOT tape recording son! Pull the average level back to -18dB or so, max should hit no higher than -8ish.

Tip: "Dull acoustic guitar" ? When you have trapped the ***t out of the room it can be a bit dull. For ACG lay a sheet of 'Hardboard' 8'x4' down and sit in the middle of it. The HF 'bounce' off the floor brightens up guitar a treat.

Dave.

 

[Mack Caster]

I would like to add that the mic's interface input gain is lower than I used before, yet this mic does pick up the littlest noises. This time around, those noises were all coming from me moving in my chair, and the A/C I didn't bother to turn off. I'm making progress, thanks to all of you who have commented.

You can build an AC Vent silencer very cheap and get professional results. Just make sure that the output for the hole on the silencer, is twice as large as the ac vent hole in the house. Standard registers are 4 x 12 so the out put needs to have two installed or one that is 8 x 24.

My house has a craw space so I mounted mine between the floor joyce underneath. The reason for the double size is to make sure the air flow is not restricted as it may screw up your ac handler. You can also do the same thing with flexible air duct and make a series of 90 degree bends, but the results are not as good. While air has no problem moving around 90 degree angles, sound does. That is why the one in the pic is designed the way it is.

You can also by commercial grade silencers but they start around $400.00 each and you can build on for under $80.00 that works just as well. Now you can run your ac or heat and it will not interfere with you audio, even if you use condensers. The air comes in from the bottom and comes out the top.

View attachment 100767

View attachment 100768

 

[spantini]

I will be interested to hear your noise floor with the AC off! As it stands you have a noise floor of -35dBFS!

But (with apologies to Bob Newheart!) Too LOUD man! That clip is averaging around -9dBFS with a max of just -1.4dBFS. This is NOT tape recording son! Pull the average level back to -18dB or so, max should hit no higher than -8ish.

Tip: "Dull acoustic guitar" ? When you have trapped the ***t out of the room it can be a bit dull. For ACG lay a sheet of 'Hardboard' 8'x4' down and sit in the middle of it. The HF 'bounce' off the floor brightens up guitar a treat.

Dave.

Ok. I'm paying attention.. I think.

Setup: I positioned the mic and acoustic guitar as in the previous illustration. Armed Reaper track for recording. I played guitar as I adjusted the interface input gain to hover around the -18 - (00.0 dB) mark on the meter. I recorded dry.

These illustrations show the levels I was seeing during record mode and ask about the correct level you suggested. Should I drop that average recording level down to just below the -30- mark (-18.0dB) ?