R
RFR
Well-known member
Well its about time you came up for air
Hahaha, your studio looks tiny!
Congrats on the new place.
Hahaha, your studio looks tiny!
Congrats on the new place.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Phew!
Glad to hear from you, Brad. I recall your wife was having some health challenges and whatnot; was worried things had taken a turn for the worse.
Yes...the mobile Studio looksssss...mobile.
The space looks cool!
Glad to hear from you, Brad. I recall your wife was having some health challenges and whatnot; was worried things had taken a turn for the worse.
Yes...the mobile Studio looksssss...mobile.
The space looks cool!
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
she keeps me busy with doctors , but I just think that this is going to be the way its going to be
The space is great!! or it will be... Right now it has a lot of echos and I go into recording mode in February. I'm just interested in making it sound a little more dead. I guess I'll hang blankets or something until I get around to it this summer or fall..... The honeydo list is increasing and it doesn't seem to be including this room for some reason....
The space is great!! or it will be... Right now it has a lot of echos and I go into recording mode in February. I'm just interested in making it sound a little more dead. I guess I'll hang blankets or something until I get around to it this summer or fall..... The honeydo list is increasing and it doesn't seem to be including this room for some reason....
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
Patchbay Help
I've been revisiting the Mobile Project. Now, even though we have a house, my wife hasn't quite gotten the travel bug out of her system. Now we are talking just about a month at a time instead of full time.
Here's a picture of the finished project (as it was) for those who don't remember (.....heck..... I almost didn't remember....... )
it is a mixer, mono compresser, reverb, and audio buddy (for condenser mic power). In addition, I have a delay pedal I use and am looking at possible another pedal eventually.
When looking through this thread (and videos) people have recommended a patchbay several times. In my limited understanding of patchbays, I think the only use of this would be for the mono compressor to change inserts. Am I right? Are there other things I could use the patchbay for to make life easier?
As always, everyones help is greatly appreciated...
Brad
I've been revisiting the Mobile Project. Now, even though we have a house, my wife hasn't quite gotten the travel bug out of her system. Now we are talking just about a month at a time instead of full time.
Here's a picture of the finished project (as it was) for those who don't remember (.....heck..... I almost didn't remember.......
)it is a mixer, mono compresser, reverb, and audio buddy (for condenser mic power). In addition, I have a delay pedal I use and am looking at possible another pedal eventually.
When looking through this thread (and videos) people have recommended a patchbay several times. In my limited understanding of patchbays, I think the only use of this would be for the mono compressor to change inserts. Am I right? Are there other things I could use the patchbay for to make life easier?
As always, everyones help is greatly appreciated...
Brad
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
The #1 reason(s) to use a patchbay IMO is to:
1. Make frequently accessed jacks *accessible* and
2. Join outputs and inputs together that you most frequently or *normally* (this is where the term "normalling" jacks comes from) have connected together.
1. Make frequently accessed jacks *accessible* and
2. Join outputs and inputs together that you most frequently or *normally* (this is where the term "normalling" jacks comes from) have connected together.
famous beagle
Well-known member
To expand on point 1, it prevents you from having to go behind your gear to make connections. Aside from the compressor, you would also use it for your reverb.
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
So.... since I have a six channel mixer, I would have 6 jacks hooked up to the inserts ( for the compressor) and 1 to the compressor. Is there anything special I need to do at the patchbay with the insert cable?
Then an effect out and return, aux send and the six audio inputs right?
Anything else you can think of? I’d like to draw up a diagram and run it by y’all.
Thanks,
Brad
Then an effect out and return, aux send and the six audio inputs right?
Anything else you can think of? I’d like to draw up a diagram and run it by y’all.
Thanks,
Brad
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
You would need to connect the 6 insert jacks to a patchbay using insert cables; TRS at the mixer to TS + TS. Each insert would occupy both an in and an out jack of the patchbay...the send and return plugs of the insert cable need to be normalled or signal won't pass from the input jack of the mixer to the rest of the channel strip. You would then patch the input and output of the compressor (for instance) to the send and return jacks on the patchbay for whatever channel you want to insert the compressor.
Does that make sense?
Does that make sense?
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
I think so.... I’ll draw something up and see what y’all think
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Okay. Take a crack at it and we'll go from there.
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Yeah...something like that...I'll be really interested to see others' input on it, but you've got the idea right on the inserts with them normalled, send in the top back jack and return in the bottom back jack.
Is there an effect unit you usually have patched into the EFF buss? If so consider normalling the send and return jacks to that device's input and output. That's the thing...the patchbay gets difficult-to-access jacks in front of you where you can get to them, but it also conveniently patches together devices you normally have connected. The exception is insert jacks unless you usually have (for instance) hardware compressor units for each insert and they are always patched in to your inserts. That's not usually the case, so just like you have them insert send and return normalled will keep your signal flow intact on your mixer, but have the jacks accessible to patch into your insert effect, and when you plug a cable into the top front jack it breaks the normalled connection. The insert effect will be getting signal, but no signal will return to the mixer until you connect the insert effect's output to the bottom front jack, and the signal path is complete. If you want to tap into the insert send signal but not break the normalled connection, you can plug a cable into the bottom front jack only and you will "sniff" the signal, but the top and bottom jacks in the back will still be normalled. You'll want to double check how your patchbay is configured...but that's sort of a typical setup. Many patchbays are "programmable"...the jack sets are in modules you can flip or reverse to change how they behave...half-normalled, straight-through, or fully normalled.
Another question: what outputs on the mixer do you usually have connected to the audio interface inputs?
Is there an effect unit you usually have patched into the EFF buss? If so consider normalling the send and return jacks to that device's input and output. That's the thing...the patchbay gets difficult-to-access jacks in front of you where you can get to them, but it also conveniently patches together devices you normally have connected. The exception is insert jacks unless you usually have (for instance) hardware compressor units for each insert and they are always patched in to your inserts. That's not usually the case, so just like you have them insert send and return normalled will keep your signal flow intact on your mixer, but have the jacks accessible to patch into your insert effect, and when you plug a cable into the top front jack it breaks the normalled connection. The insert effect will be getting signal, but no signal will return to the mixer until you connect the insert effect's output to the bottom front jack, and the signal path is complete. If you want to tap into the insert send signal but not break the normalled connection, you can plug a cable into the bottom front jack only and you will "sniff" the signal, but the top and bottom jacks in the back will still be normalled. You'll want to double check how your patchbay is configured...but that's sort of a typical setup. Many patchbays are "programmable"...the jack sets are in modules you can flip or reverse to change how they behave...half-normalled, straight-through, or fully normalled.
Another question: what outputs on the mixer do you usually have connected to the audio interface inputs?
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Attached is a quick diagram of how to route an insert into a patch bay. It assumes jacks on the rear of the bay but many are solder tags.
The Normally Closed switches are of course confined in the body of the jack. There are many things to consider when setting up a patch bay...
In this case it will all be unbalanced* since both the Tascam and inserts are such. Makes life a lot simpler but beware the dreaded ground loop! Note too that the diagram shows both HOT and ground wires switched? Do not try to get away with routing hot wires only. My instinct is that you could wire the bay AS IF it were balanced, i.e. ground to ring because inserting a TS jack will pick that up but 'tronics can catch you out! This assumes of course that the bay you get uses TRS jacks, but I am pretty sure they all do.
Rationalisation : The Tascam uses RCAs and so decide TS jacks will be used throughout and make cables and adaptor boxes up to stay with those.
Tassy seems to be -10dBV operating level? If the mixer (mod # please!) is running +4dBu then it would be best to attenuate signals to match the tape machine so you can set things for 'unity gain' . You don't really want to be Jodrelling with levels on location!
Cables: Need a LOT. For 'static' systems like patchbays there is no point in using HD braided shield mic cable. Pig to strip and you can get 'whiskers' that cause crackles and shorts. 3-4mm OD FOIL shielded twin screened is better. Easier to bundle and route and the drain wire makes slobbering a dream. MUCH cheaper too!
That'll do for now.
* You could 'impedance balance' all outputs which would be an advantage but only into balanced inputs.
Dave.
The Normally Closed switches are of course confined in the body of the jack. There are many things to consider when setting up a patch bay...
In this case it will all be unbalanced* since both the Tascam and inserts are such. Makes life a lot simpler but beware the dreaded ground loop! Note too that the diagram shows both HOT and ground wires switched? Do not try to get away with routing hot wires only. My instinct is that you could wire the bay AS IF it were balanced, i.e. ground to ring because inserting a TS jack will pick that up but 'tronics can catch you out! This assumes of course that the bay you get uses TRS jacks, but I am pretty sure they all do.
Rationalisation : The Tascam uses RCAs and so decide TS jacks will be used throughout and make cables and adaptor boxes up to stay with those.
Tassy seems to be -10dBV operating level? If the mixer (mod # please!) is running +4dBu then it would be best to attenuate signals to match the tape machine so you can set things for 'unity gain' . You don't really want to be Jodrelling with levels on location!
Cables: Need a LOT. For 'static' systems like patchbays there is no point in using HD braided shield mic cable. Pig to strip and you can get 'whiskers' that cause crackles and shorts. 3-4mm OD FOIL shielded twin screened is better. Easier to bundle and route and the drain wire makes slobbering a dream. MUCH cheaper too!
That'll do for now.
* You could 'impedance balance' all outputs which would be an advantage but only into balanced inputs.
Dave.
S
sr71rules
Member
All good advice so far, as far as I'm concerned.
I try to map out the bays to do as much work as possible without the need for any patch cables on the front. Understanding normals and half-normals is key. In a normal, any connection made to the front jacks will break the connection between the two rear jacks. With half-normals you can plug something into the top front jack and make a 'copy' of the signal there without breaking the signal going to the lower rear jack. This is great for parallel processing or to record on version unprocessed and send the 2nd copy through some processing before recording, etc.
Use the halfs for getting from buses to recording interface (tape deck, computer, whatever), use them for the insert points.. which then gives you poor man's direct outs if they are missing.
With solderless patch bays the risk is low. Wire it up, use it for a bit and then update it to suit.
I also use a spreadsheet to make labels that I tape onto the bay so I know what goes where...
(Great to see some Linux use in those screenshots
)
I try to map out the bays to do as much work as possible without the need for any patch cables on the front. Understanding normals and half-normals is key. In a normal, any connection made to the front jacks will break the connection between the two rear jacks. With half-normals you can plug something into the top front jack and make a 'copy' of the signal there without breaking the signal going to the lower rear jack. This is great for parallel processing or to record on version unprocessed and send the 2nd copy through some processing before recording, etc.
Use the halfs for getting from buses to recording interface (tape deck, computer, whatever), use them for the insert points.. which then gives you poor man's direct outs if they are missing.
With solderless patch bays the risk is low. Wire it up, use it for a bit and then update it to suit.
I also use a spreadsheet to make labels that I tape onto the bay so I know what goes where...
(Great to see some Linux use in those screenshots
)
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
I just put it on an old MS Vista machine. Brought the thing right back to life.....funny though.... in a previous life, I used unix quite a bit. I'd flip to the terminal window and was a command and switch using fool..... now.....if its not on the gui... I won't work up the effort....
I like the idea of the spreadsheet to make labels!! As far as when to use normal and half-normal PBs....... I've been looking at it for a couple of days now and am still not getting the theory behind it.
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
Thanks guys for all the help
Here's the new drawing with Sb's suggestion of the reverb effect added, and ecc's insert plug-in
The mixer is a Tascam M-106 and the input level is -10dBV
I used the wrong terminology here. These are this line inputs to the mixer not audio interfaces (I corrected the drawing). I only included five of the six inputs because I have a pre-amp for my condenser mic with phantom power that I'll leave dedicated to channel 1. The line inputs now have to handle keyboards, electronic drums, and a guitar amp along with what it used to in the trailer (guitar, Garageband, vocals, etc.....)
Here's the new drawing with Sb's suggestion of the reverb effect added, and ecc's insert plug-in
The mixer is a Tascam M-106 and the input level is -10dBV
I used the wrong terminology here. These are this line inputs to the mixer not audio interfaces (I corrected the drawing). I only included five of the six inputs because I have a pre-amp for my condenser mic with phantom power that I'll leave dedicated to channel 1. The line inputs now have to handle keyboards, electronic drums, and a guitar amp along with what it used to in the trailer (guitar, Garageband, vocals, etc.....)
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
Got it all hooked up and look!! another slot available!!
Thanks for the spreadsheet label idea... it worked well!!
....now to figure out how to use the dad-blamed thing......
Brad
Thanks for the spreadsheet label idea... it worked well!!
....now to figure out how to use the dad-blamed thing......
Brad
famous beagle
Well-known member
Got it all hooked up and look!! another slot available!!
Well, this simply will not do!
Hey Brad, sorry for not commenting before when you showed the patchbay layout in a few earlier posts. The print was too small for me to read, and I didn't bother trying to zoom in.
But it seems to me you have your effect send and reverb return points mixed up. If you arranged the patchbay like the attached picture shows, you won't even have to add a cable, because your effects send will be automatically fed (i.e. "normalled") to your reverb in, and the reverb out will automatically feed to your effect return.
If this was addressed in an earlier post, forgive me. I missed it.
Attachments
bachelorb
Cowboy Chord Virtuoso
Well, this simply will not do!
But it seems to me you have your effect send and reverb return points mixed up. If you arranged the patchbay like the attached picture shows, you won't even have to add a cable, because your effects send will be automatically fed (i.e. "normalled") to your reverb in, and the reverb out will automatically feed to your effect return.
If this was addressed in an earlier post, forgive me. I missed it.
I guess I’m a little confused here FB. I thought each vertical set of jacks were independent of each other. My Reverb in/out is coming out of the Nanoverb, and the Effect out/return is coming out of the mixer. My thought on this was (I think SB suggested it) if I wanted to add a pedal I can patch through effect in/out. Same with the reverb... patch it through effect in/out. Did I screw up here?
famous beagle
Well-known member
Patchbays can be set up different ways: normal, half-normal, and thru. In my experience, most are set up as either normal or half-normal by default (most being normal). Many can be configured to different settings as well (even individual rows can be different). Here's a quick explanation:
Normal: The signal from the top jack (output) automatically flows to the bottom jack, unless something is plugged into the top jack. If something is plugged into the top jack, then the signal from the top jack to the bottom jack is broken.
Half-normal: This is like normal except that, when something is plugged into the top jack, the signal still flows to the bottom jack as well. So the signal is split.
Thru: The top and bottom jacks are independent of one another (not connected) even when nothing is plugged into one of the jacks.
Maybe I missed it earlier .... Is your patchbay a thru design only? If so, then you have to set it up the way you did.
But if it is setup normally, then you should take advantage of that. Even in normal mode, you can still patch other things into the chain.
Here's an example: Let's say you have a reverb unit (your Nanoverb) and another effects unit, like a delay or something. And let's say you have:
the effects send jack at #10 in the top row and the Nanoverb input at #10 in the bottom row.
Then you have the Nanoverb output at #11 in the top row and the effects return at #11 in the bottom row.
And you have the output of the delay unit at #12 in the top row
And you have the input of the delay unit at #13 in the bottom row.
In this configuration, if your patchbay is in normal mode (or even half normal), you don't need to make any connections on the front of the patchbay to hear your Nanoverb. It will always be connected to your effects send/return loop. You just turn up the effect knobs on your mixer, and you'll hear the effect. Your signal flow would be:
effects send ---> Nanoverb ---> effects return
However, if you also want to hear the delay unit as well, you can still do that, but you would need to use patch cables. You would simply: 1) run a patch cable from your effect send jack (#10 top)---remember, this will break the connection to the bottom #10 jack---to your delay input jack (#13 bottom).
2) run a cable from your delay output jack (#12 top) to your Nanoverb input jack (#10 top)
The signal from your Nanoverb output (#11 top) is still normalled to your effects return (#11 bottom), so you don't need to make anymore connections.
In this way, your signal would be:
effects send ---> delay unit ---> Nanoverb ---> effects return.
The normal design allows you to take advantage of what you would signal flow you would "normally" have. If you're normally going to have your Nanoverb in the effects loop, then you should arrange your patchbay that way so as to save you some patching most of the time.
Make sense?
Edit: I just re-read this and realized it could have come off a little as "you did this wrong!" I didn't mean to sound like that. It will certainly work the way you have it. It's just that you will have to use patch cables every time. That's not a big deal, of course.
And if you set up patch cables from your effects send to your Nanoverb in and then from your Nanoverb out to your effect return---and then just leave them there---you're essentially accomplishing the same thing, albeit with a bit more clutter.
Last edited: