Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Sony make fairly few great mics, USB or otherwise.
I've always liked the ECM 77 lav but that's about it.
I've always liked the ECM 77 lav but that's about it.
J
jace112
New member
I need some help please.
My daughter wants to sing karaoke. After a few research I ended up with this USB mic : Samson X1U (Samson Stage X1U - Thomann UK)
It's plugged into my PC :
Gigabyte GA-Z77P-D3
Core i3 3200
Gigabyte GeForce 650 Ti
2x4 Go RAM
No additional sound card
And the output is the HDMI port of my video card, plugged into my A/V receiver (Pioneer VSX-529)
The delay between the real voice and the speakers makes the karaoke experience horrible.
I've tried to understand what's going wrong :
1/ the ADC of the mic is to slow, and increases the latency
2/ the wireless transmission increases the latency
3/ both
I don't see any other reason why I have such a problem. The digital signal of the USB mic coming into the PC USB port should go straight to the HDMI output, no?
What do you think?
Are they some cheap USB microphones that allows a good karaoke experience? Is something wrong with my PC?
I know that a XLR mic + USB Audio Interface (like Behringer U-Phoria UM2 - Thomann UK) should work anyway, but
1/ I want to understand what's going on
2/ this solution adds an external sound card and as my PC is in the living room, I'd like to keep things very simple (I've a nice Fractal Node 605 case)
Thanks from Paris!
My daughter wants to sing karaoke. After a few research I ended up with this USB mic : Samson X1U (Samson Stage X1U - Thomann UK)
It's plugged into my PC :
Gigabyte GA-Z77P-D3
Core i3 3200
Gigabyte GeForce 650 Ti
2x4 Go RAM
No additional sound card
And the output is the HDMI port of my video card, plugged into my A/V receiver (Pioneer VSX-529)
The delay between the real voice and the speakers makes the karaoke experience horrible.
I've tried to understand what's going wrong :
1/ the ADC of the mic is to slow, and increases the latency
2/ the wireless transmission increases the latency
3/ both
I don't see any other reason why I have such a problem. The digital signal of the USB mic coming into the PC USB port should go straight to the HDMI output, no?
What do you think?
Are they some cheap USB microphones that allows a good karaoke experience? Is something wrong with my PC?
I know that a XLR mic + USB Audio Interface (like Behringer U-Phoria UM2 - Thomann UK) should work anyway, but
1/ I want to understand what's going on
2/ this solution adds an external sound card and as my PC is in the living room, I'd like to keep things very simple (I've a nice Fractal Node 605 case)
Thanks from Paris!
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
It's probably NOT going directly to the HDMI output. USB mic inputs to a computer are almost always buffered in the computer. If you're adding an effect like reverb (pretty standard for karaoke) that will add to the delay as will any other effect you're using.
You may find you can adjust the latency on your computer, depending on your software. If you go the XLR route with an interface, make sure you get an interface that has ASIO drivers. These are specifically designed to lower the latency too.
However, there will always be SOME lag running through a computer.
Are you using the computer because you want to record her karaoke or simply as a way to get an USB mic into your AV receiver? If it's the latter, another thing you might try is not using the computer at all. Instead, buy a basic XLR mic plus a small, cheap mixer. If the computer is providing the backing tracks, put that output into the mixer as well. If reverb is wanted, lots of pretty basic mixers will do that for you. Indeed, with the right set up you might even be able to feed the output back into the computer to record it.
Just a thought.
You may find you can adjust the latency on your computer, depending on your software. If you go the XLR route with an interface, make sure you get an interface that has ASIO drivers. These are specifically designed to lower the latency too.
However, there will always be SOME lag running through a computer.
Are you using the computer because you want to record her karaoke or simply as a way to get an USB mic into your AV receiver? If it's the latter, another thing you might try is not using the computer at all. Instead, buy a basic XLR mic plus a small, cheap mixer. If the computer is providing the backing tracks, put that output into the mixer as well. If reverb is wanted, lots of pretty basic mixers will do that for you. Indeed, with the right set up you might even be able to feed the output back into the computer to record it.
Just a thought.
J
jace112
New member
That's right, thanks
Good point!
Sadly, I think I cannot use this simple solution : (XLR Mic + PC analog audio ) > audio Mixer > AV receiver analog audio input
Because I need the PC to send video too. My receiver can not mix analog audio input and HDMI video, I can only use one source at the time.
Finally, do you think I can find an USB mic that will work without a disturbing latency for karaoke on my PC?
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
I fear that the vast majority of your latency is happening inside the computer and a change of USB microphone won't make any significant difference. A move to an XLR mic through an interface with ASIO drivers would certainly help but I can't put my hand on heart and say it'll help enough to justify the expenditure. It may well, but I don't want to push you into spending money then regretting it and blaming me! 
Let me pour myself a single malt and see if I can think of anything else.
Let me pour myself a single malt and see if I can think of anything else.
J
jace112
New member
I've tried other things :
- a basic USB gaming headset : latency is reduced, but still noticeable and annoying
- an analog Philipps mic ($50) plugged into the mic input of the audio card integrated to my motherboard with 3.5 jack : no latency, but the level is too weak, and the quality is not really good (as expected!)
XLR mic + USB audio interface with ASIO is roughly the same price as the Samson X1U (at Thomman.de)
- a basic USB gaming headset : latency is reduced, but still noticeable and annoying
- an analog Philipps mic ($50) plugged into the mic input of the audio card integrated to my motherboard with 3.5 jack : no latency, but the level is too weak, and the quality is not really good (as expected!)
XLR mic + USB audio interface with ASIO is roughly the same price as the Samson X1U (at Thomman.de)
E
ecc83
Well-known member
" an analogue Philipps mic ($50) plugged into the mic input of the audio card integrated to my motherboard with 3.5 jack : no latency, but the level is too weak, and the quality is not really good (as expected!)"
Aha! There IS a mic, the BM-800 about $30 that plugs in the motherboard jack as per the Philips but it is a capacitor (aka condenser) mic with good sensitivity and IMHO very decent sound quality (I am STILL waiting on son sending me some recording of his 2500 Euro classical guitar on one!)
Bit more money to spend but as Bobbs says, you can only really get low latency with an XLR mic and a decent AI.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BTSKY-Cond...8&qid=1465204860&sr=8-1&keywords=btsky+bm+800
Dave.
Aha! There IS a mic, the BM-800 about $30 that plugs in the motherboard jack as per the Philips but it is a capacitor (aka condenser) mic with good sensitivity and IMHO very decent sound quality (I am STILL waiting on son sending me some recording of his 2500 Euro classical guitar on one!)
Bit more money to spend but as Bobbs says, you can only really get low latency with an XLR mic and a decent AI.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BTSKY-Cond...8&qid=1465204860&sr=8-1&keywords=btsky+bm+800
Dave.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Hey Jace!
If you ever fancy a trip to the seaside, L'havre or Etretat, PM me and I will get my son to find you and you can have a crack with his mic!
Dave.
If you ever fancy a trip to the seaside, L'havre or Etretat, PM me and I will get my son to find you and you can have a crack with his mic!
Dave.
J
jace112
New member
Thanks, but I fear the integrated sound card will be the achille's heel of the system. So weird I cannot find an USB mic with a decent ADC just for singing karaoke.
When my daughter asked for it, I said "for sure, let's buy a mic and that's it" !!!
---------- Update ----------
Thanks Dave!
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Thanks, but I fear the integrated sound card will be the achille's heel of the system. So weird I cannot find an USB mic with a decent ADC just for singing karaoke.
When my daughter asked for it, I said "for sure, let's buy a mic and that's it" !!!
---------- Update ----------
Thanks Dave!
Just a cotton pikkin'! You said that the Philips dynamic thru the ISCard gave no latency? If that is so NEITHER will the BM-800! It might LOOK like every other USB LDC you have ever seen but it ain't.
It is an electret cap' mic powered from the PC and I found it worked better than a £50 USB mic I had.
It comes with an XLR to 3.5mm TRS jack plug cable so you are good to go right out of the box. In fact if it does not work for you I will buy it off ya!
Dave.
J
jace112
New member
Yes, I now understand that I won't get any latency using an analog mic, but as good as the mic is, the IScard quality is really poor. I could buy this BM-800 but along with a real sound card.
My friend comes on wednesday with a proper XLR mic and his external sound card : FireFace UCX (RME Fireface UCX - Thomann UK)
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Well ! THAT is going to spoil you for everything up to Xmas! Super low latency, blindin' drivers, cracking converter cips. ...
Mind you, what EXACTLY is wrong with the ISC? I have had 4 laptops and run sound thru the OBS card in desktops and they have always been fair to middling? This i3 HP lappy upon which I type sounds rather good straight into my Tannoy 5As and I has a Blista works Toshy laptop that was not too foul either.
Integrated sound is bog all use for general recording, high latency as you have found and the MO is crap for overdubbing but the actual basic sound quality is not that bad I have found, equal to an iPhone?
Anyhoosywhatsits. The mic I suggested can still be used on an XLR-XLR cable. Plug it into the UCX, talk about "tail wagging dog"!
Don't forget to post!
Dave.
arcaxis
Well-known member
How's about a conversion of the HDMI to composite video plus stereo audio > Amazon.com: COWEEN HDMI to RCA Converter 1080P 3RCA CVBS HDMI to AV Composite Adapter DHCP RCA for TV Stick XBox PS4 DVD HDMI2AV: Electronics . Send the audio to a small mixer into a stereo channel and have a conventional XLR mic plugged into a mic input of the mixer. Some small mixers can have effects such as reverb and delay which is good for karaoke. Composite video from the converter goes direct to the Pioneer VSX-529 RCA composite video in and stereo audio out of the mixer goes to the L/R RCA audio ins of the Pioneer VSX-529. A little more involved maybe, but gives more control of the audio and shouldn't have a latency problem.
This setup presumes your system has composite inputs that you aren't already using.
Might be able to find something like this used a bit cheaper....
Behringer XENYX 1002FX 10 Channel Audio Mixer 1002FX B&H Photo
This setup presumes your system has composite inputs that you aren't already using.
Might be able to find something like this used a bit cheaper....
Behringer XENYX 1002FX 10 Channel Audio Mixer 1002FX B&H Photo
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I have one of those HDMI converters. Different name but looks identical, cost me those $$s in ££s but works a treat. I can copy ANYTHING running through this HP i3 onto a Freeview HD recorder.
Dave.
J
jace112
New member
Level of the mic input of the ISC is very low, I have to boost the gain way too much and then I get distorsion. I also ear some crackles.
J
jace112
New member
Yes, that's a tricky way to achieve the mixing, good point. But sounds a bit oversized (2 more boxes) and honestly I'm not sure it would better than an USB audio interface like UM2 | Audio Interfaces | Computer Audio | Behringer | Categories | MUSIC Group and a traditional mic.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Careful of a lot of cheaper Behringer interfaces--they use standard Windows MME drivers rather than a purpose made ASIO so latency is still an issue.
I hear what you say about the internal sound card--mine is only really suitable for Skype phone calls--and even there I often plug in a USB interface. Internal cards rarely have much clean gain for mics and also rarely have much headroom.
Arcaxis' idea about the HDMI converter sounds very clever to me...
I hear what you say about the internal sound card--mine is only really suitable for Skype phone calls--and even there I often plug in a USB interface. Internal cards rarely have much clean gain for mics and also rarely have much headroom.
Arcaxis' idea about the HDMI converter sounds very clever to me...
J
jace112
New member
You're right. The cheap Behringer interface uses Asio4all drivers. It may not be sufficient to avoid latency. This time, before buying I will clearly explain the purpose of the use.
But honestly I'd prefer adding only one good audio interface rather than a mixer and a video converter.
So at the end, we may say :
It's not possible to find an usb mic suitable for karaoke.
Very surprising (or disappointing)
E
ecc83
Well-known member
The cap LDC I suggested is way more sensitive than a dynamic, maybe 20dB or so. This means you can crank the Windows input gain down quite a bit, especially for belting out "fun" vocals! The crackling might be OTT clipping, the meat and taters of the recording needs to be around -18dBFS though this might give too low a feed level to the rest of the system but this is a problem you will face even with a decent AI. Often ad hoc "monitoring" setups don't have enough clean gain.
I honestly think that mic is worth a do, especially since if you do end up with an AI it will work on that as well. (mean it about buying it!)
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Not that it affects your choice but in case it helps anyone...
ASIO4ALL isn't actually a driver. It's actually a "wrapper" that makes MME devices look like an ASIO driver to your software. It's a very good and clever bit of code (and can often be very useful) but at the bottom of everything it's still using MME.
As for the rest, I don't really think it's the USB mics. It's trying to make a signal transit through your computer and a couple of A to D/D to A conversions. As Scotty would have said "I cannae change the laws of physics". Most Karaoke set ups I've seen don't use a computer at all--they're effectively DVD players with video and audio out. Some let you plug a mic into them but many others expect you to be plugging into a mixer and PA (which is where I've seen them since I'm usually providing the PA).