JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Well, tell us what you think - I was quite a big fan of them when I was younger. Its just after lunch here.
The Deepest End - alternative rock - feedback puhlease?
- Thread starter andrushkiwt
- Start date
Well, tell us what you think - I was quite a big fan of them when I was younger. Its just after lunch here.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
Interesting....
I really liked The Bitter End. I would listen to that a lot, if it were on frickin Amazon. Great song.
His vocals are a little too quirky to listen to frequently. But I could def get into songs like the one I mentioned. The others I didn't care much for. I would guess that The Bitter End is one of their more well-known tunes - it's just written very well and has a "single" quality to it. The tension, the buildup, the piling on until the (bitter) end.
I can see the correlation in my music and why you guys would say that... Although you must not have heard my pop stuff.
you'll have a diff opinion in a day or two. Finishing one up now. I'm curious to see the comparisons next time around...
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Interesting....
I really liked The Bitter End. I would listen to that a lot, if it were on frickin Amazon. Great song.
His vocals are a little too quirky to listen to frequently. But I could def get into songs like the one I mentioned. The others I didn't care much for. I would guess that The Bitter End is one of their more well-known tunes - it's just written very well and has a "single" quality to it. The tension, the buildup, the piling on until the (bitter) end.
I can see the correlation in my music and why you guys would say that... Although you must not have heard my pop stuff.
OK, before I say it, this isn't meant as an insult but sometimes your music reminds me of Jimmy Eat World. Not sure why.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
lol. they're good, i like "The Middle". good catchy song. I liked those 90's-2000's band that had catchy, melodic, pop-punk-alternative stuff.
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
That's actually the only Jimmy Eat World song I can remember but yeah, your music often reminds me of it. Glad you don't mind.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
Nah. I think they're a little more "bubblegum pop rock", especially from a lyrical standpoint. But the music is close I think. I like to think mines a little darker, but you "never know just how you look through other people's eyes".... Pepper. Butthole Surfers
ibleedburgundy
The Anti-Lambo
This sounds really good dude. I do not have any nits. Great song structure. Tastefully blended.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
Hey thanks IBB
Nola
Well-known member
what are your favorite bands or biggest influences?
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Yeah, yours is definitely darker (and quite a lot better) but I suppose its in a similar vein.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
I thought we talked about Neer-vana? no? Yeah, they're the only band I know literally every song and a vast majority of the band and personal history. Otherwise, I don't know, I mean I listened to "Every Day" by Buddy Holly and then "Take On Me" by Ah-ha, and then "In Due Time" by Killswitch Engage, and then "What A Night" by Four Seasons, and then "Cryin'" by Aerosmith, and then "Jesus of Suburbia" by Green Day.....point is, I just like a good melody. That's what I try to create when I write. A catchy melody. So, there's probably a mix of alternative, rock, and pop in all of them. At least that's what I would think. I couldn't tell you what other people hear.
---------- Update ----------
hey thanks, kind of you
Nola
Well-known member
yeah, i was wondering if you had any big influences in the emo genre b/c that's what people seem to classify you as most on here. or, those are the bands they compare you to most, i should say. but it sounds like you don't really listen to those bands.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
hmmm....lol. well, i like a couple My Chemical Romance songs. Does that count? Black Parade and Helena. I think those are great songs. I really liked Avenged Sevenfold on their first 3 albums. Met them when I lived in Chicago. Got the drummers autograph 2 months before he died.
icecoolpool
New member
Really good job, I've listened to this twice now - so that's a really good sign!
Pros:
Really good song, strong melody, singing that is spot-on for the genre, not to mention your good musicianship & programming skills.
The track is also well structured, containing a strong arrangement with instruments and sounds that are appropriate for the song.
Hey, that's a lot of pros!
Anyway, the first time I listened to your track was through laptop speakers and it sounded finished (perhaps you could have increased the vocal 1db - but, hey, that's why you send vox up versions to mastering!). In fact, the track sounded so good, and exceeded my expectations so much, I had to listen to it through a better system to see if it would hold up.
The good news, I preferred the song the second time! It's a grower and you should get it out to local alt rock radio stations, it deserves a few spins. Nonetheless, the mix revealed a few limitations:
1) That bass everyone is talking about. Compare your bass to a commercial rock bass track such as this one:
This track is punky and, suitably for the genre, has a very prominent bass so you don't want to be copying it 100% in an alt-rock track. Nonetheless, I chose it to demonstrate the huge amount of 1k-3k content a bass can have. Maybe have one bus for amped bass and another for DI bass with huge eq boost in this area. Something to try out, experiment. Maybe an eq boosted amp/DI alone will do. Try something like Waves CLA Bass if you want to quickly whip through different ideas.
2) The drums. I think the basic sounds on the drums are strong and it won't take it much to raise it to the next level. My main concerns lie in two areas: the hi-hat, and the panning.
The hi-hat is very dominant, with too much high frequency energy - in fact, it's overpowering the snare. It's also distorting - especially in the upper mid/high range - have a look at your processing, they might be aliasing artefacts somewhere.
Also, think about the panning. Your toms seem very narrow reducing energy potential, while your cymbals are very very wide - this was distracting for me (that cymbal where they alternate playing during the instrumental didn't sound like a real player, which is a shame, because you nailed the rest). Here's panning in a typical Chris Lord-Alge mix:
Centre: Snare, Kick, low rack tom (stereo OHs, stereo room, mono room mic)
Left: HiHat!*, High rack tom, (OH left, room left)
Right: Floor tom, (OH Right, room right)
No 30% panning, just full LCR for maximum energy and vibrancy.
*The hihat, although panned fully left, doesn't sound out of place because of bleed in the snare mic and OHs and room mics (a lot of mixers have the hihat centre or off centre but I love the way CLA approaches this).
Finally turn the kick and snare up!
Seriously, good job - it's 90% there. I'm only nitpicking so much because the track and performance deserve it!
Here's some great drum mixing videos. The first is from Marc Mclusky who is a crazily talented mixer and engineer, it starts properly at 2:20 if you don't want to watch the preamble:
Marc McClusky on Mixing Drums [MixCon Video] - YouTube (sorry, not allowed to embed)
This is from Steven Slate: Drum Mixing Tutorial - How to mix drums and get HUGE Drum Sounds! - YouTube
Pros:
Really good song, strong melody, singing that is spot-on for the genre, not to mention your good musicianship & programming skills.
The track is also well structured, containing a strong arrangement with instruments and sounds that are appropriate for the song.
Hey, that's a lot of pros!
Anyway, the first time I listened to your track was through laptop speakers and it sounded finished (perhaps you could have increased the vocal 1db - but, hey, that's why you send vox up versions to mastering!). In fact, the track sounded so good, and exceeded my expectations so much, I had to listen to it through a better system to see if it would hold up.
The good news, I preferred the song the second time! It's a grower and you should get it out to local alt rock radio stations, it deserves a few spins. Nonetheless, the mix revealed a few limitations:
1) That bass everyone is talking about. Compare your bass to a commercial rock bass track such as this one:
This track is punky and, suitably for the genre, has a very prominent bass so you don't want to be copying it 100% in an alt-rock track. Nonetheless, I chose it to demonstrate the huge amount of 1k-3k content a bass can have. Maybe have one bus for amped bass and another for DI bass with huge eq boost in this area. Something to try out, experiment. Maybe an eq boosted amp/DI alone will do. Try something like Waves CLA Bass if you want to quickly whip through different ideas.
2) The drums. I think the basic sounds on the drums are strong and it won't take it much to raise it to the next level. My main concerns lie in two areas: the hi-hat, and the panning.
The hi-hat is very dominant, with too much high frequency energy - in fact, it's overpowering the snare. It's also distorting - especially in the upper mid/high range - have a look at your processing, they might be aliasing artefacts somewhere.
Also, think about the panning. Your toms seem very narrow reducing energy potential, while your cymbals are very very wide - this was distracting for me (that cymbal where they alternate playing during the instrumental didn't sound like a real player, which is a shame, because you nailed the rest). Here's panning in a typical Chris Lord-Alge mix:
Centre: Snare, Kick, low rack tom (stereo OHs, stereo room, mono room mic)
Left: HiHat!*, High rack tom, (OH left, room left)
Right: Floor tom, (OH Right, room right)
No 30% panning, just full LCR for maximum energy and vibrancy.
*The hihat, although panned fully left, doesn't sound out of place because of bleed in the snare mic and OHs and room mics (a lot of mixers have the hihat centre or off centre but I love the way CLA approaches this).
Finally turn the kick and snare up!
Seriously, good job - it's 90% there. I'm only nitpicking so much because the track and performance deserve it!
Here's some great drum mixing videos. The first is from Marc Mclusky who is a crazily talented mixer and engineer, it starts properly at 2:20 if you don't want to watch the preamble:
Marc McClusky on Mixing Drums [MixCon Video] - YouTube (sorry, not allowed to embed)
This is from Steven Slate: Drum Mixing Tutorial - How to mix drums and get HUGE Drum Sounds! - YouTube
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
First thing's first - welcome to HR and I'm honored to be the recipient of your first post. You seem to have some knowledge there, and I greatly appreciate the time you took to write that out and the thought and consideration within. Thanks a lot!
Few things:
I have no amp. This is all DI into Amplitube. In fact, this is what I'm working with. The only things not pictured are the Gibson Studio Gothic and Stagg bass, tucked into the corner:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/attachment.php?attachmentid=95824&d=1453140554
Next, some of the observations about panning are off. The hats are panned 25% L, not full. The only processing on the hats is a HP filter at about 280hz; no compression or anything else. The only thing that I think is directly affecting the hats is the lift on the master bus around 6khz of about 1.5dbs for some air and shine to the vocals and top end of everything.
The OH's are a stereo set and placed C. Cymbals move from hard out to slightly within, as if you were sitting in the throne.
Toms are placed at 86% for the furthest pieces, 50% L for rack tom 2, 10% L for rack tom 3, and 50% R for floor tom 1.
Nevertheless, my drums are definitely the weak point and I'm working hard to get them in better shape. This track DOES have room bleed on because, as I just found out thanks to Miroslav, simply moving the "bleed" knob in Superior Drummer to off does not override the "all bleed on" button when bouncing. It must only be for monitoring situations. So, from here out, the drums will be dry and easier to work with.
I have a slight bump in the bass around 2khz, but it could use more, I agree. I've been at this recording and tones and mixing thing for about 3 years, so getting better sounds is something I'm absolutely working on. Thanks for the bass suggestion. Good reference. One of my favorite bands and they ALWAYS deliver a good bass tone.
thanks man, welcome again
Nola
Well-known member
this is really popular right now, but I think time will prove it to be incorrect.
wide can sound awful in many cases.
icecoolpool
New member
Thanks for the kind welcome, I joined because I enjoyed your track so much. Firstly, I love how you've used the plugin amp sim - sounds fantastic, absolutely flawless. I may have to buy that plugin myself, it sounds that good in this track.
My panning observations were about Chris Lord Alge method not yours! (I predicted 30% L Hihat for you- you said they were 25%, so I'd say my panning observations were spot on aside from the cymbals which I falsely said were wide but I think that's because they're ping ponging L and R at one point, they sound normal the rest of the track -sorry if I wasn't clearer)
Interestingly, looking at your panning, I can say that's exactly how I used to pan drums. I mean EXACTLY. I used to match toms up with the OHs and slightly pan the hihat off to the L side because I wanted to nail that drummers perspective. Like you said, to capture that "sitting in the throne" feeling. Anyway, Mixerman (Foreigner, Ben Harper) told me to try LCR panning with the toms instead. So I listened closely to a lot of modern rock, and a lot of guys are doing it this way - in fact, I'd go as to say it's the standard. I had my doubts because it seemed counter-intuative and "unnatural" but I gave it a go and I love it!
Not that there's one way to pan drums - it would be awful if we all went the same way. It's just mixing drums is my favourite part of the process - unless the mics are all out of phase and were recorded in a poor room - in which case, kill me.
With regards to the hihat- it still sound quite harsh in that area despite minimal equing. Is there anything else on the master bus? I demoed Waves NLS a while back and I passed on it because I didn't like the way it distorted the hi-hat. Maybe I could have turned the 6k range down, but I solved the problem by switching the plugin off and uninstalling it.
Anyway, do you have future plans for the track? Are you ready to send it mastering and having it out there on radio and youtube?
Nola:
I agree, to some extent. To reiterate, I think wide only sounds good if you've got sufficient bleed in the snare mic, OHs and room. If you've got that, I think it can sound great. I have no problem panning hihat centre. Or just switching it off and just relying on bleed from other mics. And, if you want symmetry, you can always add a tambourin part to other side (if appropriate). I also don't think history will look down on this panning decision too much, it's been popular for 20 years now!
My panning observations were about Chris Lord Alge method not yours! (I predicted 30% L Hihat for you- you said they were 25%, so I'd say my panning observations were spot on aside from the cymbals which I falsely said were wide but I think that's because they're ping ponging L and R at one point, they sound normal the rest of the track -sorry if I wasn't clearer)
Interestingly, looking at your panning, I can say that's exactly how I used to pan drums. I mean EXACTLY. I used to match toms up with the OHs and slightly pan the hihat off to the L side because I wanted to nail that drummers perspective. Like you said, to capture that "sitting in the throne" feeling. Anyway, Mixerman (Foreigner, Ben Harper) told me to try LCR panning with the toms instead. So I listened closely to a lot of modern rock, and a lot of guys are doing it this way - in fact, I'd go as to say it's the standard. I had my doubts because it seemed counter-intuative and "unnatural" but I gave it a go and I love it!
Not that there's one way to pan drums - it would be awful if we all went the same way. It's just mixing drums is my favourite part of the process - unless the mics are all out of phase and were recorded in a poor room - in which case, kill me.
With regards to the hihat- it still sound quite harsh in that area despite minimal equing. Is there anything else on the master bus? I demoed Waves NLS a while back and I passed on it because I didn't like the way it distorted the hi-hat. Maybe I could have turned the 6k range down, but I solved the problem by switching the plugin off and uninstalling it.
Anyway, do you have future plans for the track? Are you ready to send it mastering and having it out there on radio and youtube?
Nola:
I agree, to some extent. To reiterate, I think wide only sounds good if you've got sufficient bleed in the snare mic, OHs and room. If you've got that, I think it can sound great. I have no problem panning hihat centre. Or just switching it off and just relying on bleed from other mics. And, if you want symmetry, you can always add a tambourin part to other side (if appropriate). I also don't think history will look down on this panning decision too much, it's been popular for 20 years now!
JDOD
therecordingrebels.com
Nice chair.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
RIGHT?!? Lol. At least I have that damn thing.
One good thing going for me in this scenario. And that is...a nice leather swivel chair. In fact, it's probably the best chair in this forum. Should start a thread. ?
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
Ah, ok, yeah on my way home from work that thought popped into my head. I wondered if you actually meant the Green Day track. I was hoping my hats weren't sounding that wide.
I've learned not all sims are equal.. This is the best I've had and I'm glad I picked it up. Careful with what you get and try before you buy if you can.
No plans for local radio, but rather for a 4-5 track demo for publishers, labels, and A&R's for songwriting purposes. Being onstage was always kinda boring to me. I remember I'd usually watch the tv's at the far end of the venue if they had any. Was never a thrill. Felt like an animal at a zoo and that I had more usefulness to music than any single instrument. I didn't want any instrument to define me. So, yeah a short demo CD for alternative rock pop song writing.
I'll try the tom spacing. That's an interesting idea. Sorry for the misunderstanding. And thanks again for the listen and feedback.
Do I get a bonus for recruiting someone?
I'll have to ask Steen. Kidding, that's flattering, thanks man.