Inquiring basic concept/setup to play horns through Wah Pedals and other Effects.

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lonlonmilklover

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I have long been inspired by many to try performing and/or recording my Tuba through a Wah Pedal. After all, Bass Guitars and horns played through wah pedals and harmonizers can sound super cool:

https://youtu.be/2OL1_6AMw3Q (both bassoon and sax intros through cool effects right in the first minute!)

I do have the Cry Baby 105Q Bass Wah, which is optimized for bass frequencies, and it does work great w/ my Electric Bass Guitar as designed. However...

If I Mic my Tuba with a standard Shure SM57, and use a Radio shack XLR to 1/4" to be able to go directly from the Tuba to the Crybaby Bass Wah Pedal, then into my Pro Tools LE DigiRack 002, something odd happens. The sound I am getting has both a strong muddy and strong metallic tinny static sound with crackles and pops when playing - almost similar to the crackles and harsh sounds you hear when you are in the red, spiking your levels. However, according to the pro tools mixer - I'm in the healthy green, nowhere near spiking.

I have made sure all cables are snug and no devices are defective - other than my suspicions about that XLR to 1/4" adapter from the SM57 to the Crybaby, which I suspect may be my configuration problem?

I'm guessing perhaps the signal from my lungs through the Tuba into the SM57 into the XLR to 1/4" maybe is... too strong or harsh of a signal to go directly into the Crybaby?

I am so new at recording and playing with equipment though, that I don't even know the name of the device I might use to try to balance out or convert my Mic signal properly into the Crybaby.

I have browsed a bit online but I can't find much other than Jeff Coffin's actual list of gear: Gear » Jeff Coffin Music , so I'm "onto" something, but I just need a bit more education on how to understand if what would work for a Sax through a wah pedal would likely work for a Tuba. I don't see why not, since I have a Bass Wah Pedal and the frequencies are par, lol.

I think my biggest confusion is: Is that XLR to 1/4" adapter the root of my problems, and should I be using something called a "pre-amp", or rather a "DI Box?"

If I understand correctly, a "DI Box" would take my acoustic wild and crazy Tuba signal and tame its craziness to be more manageable before it goes into the Crybaby?

Sorry for so many directions of questions, I'm just reaching lol...
 
A mic needs a good preamp to get the signal bumped up to the level needed to plug into the instrument level input on your wah. A DI box will do not do this.
 
If that Radio Shack adaptor is what I think, a low Z to 50k transformer then it should give you enough signal into the wah pedal assuming the mic is very close to the tuba and you are huffing a good level?

The traff should give around 24dB of lift or ~16x the output of the mic. Ball park that is 16-20mV, just about the level guitar amps and hence pedals expect.
Back in the day, mics used to be unbalanced and "hi Z" at 50k and many were just plugged into the old Selmer.Carlsboro, Fender (if you wre posh) guitar amp along with guitars and even bass!

Dave.
 
Ah, therein lies my next embarrassingly green question:

When I said Output Speaker, this is actually what I meant, a Johnson 15b: http://gsfanatic.com/aas_hirdetes_temp/pic/256169_p1020576.jpg

Is this actually called an "amp" rather than a "speaker" ? That confuses me, because in several music equipment stores, I'll see a sign that says "amps" and I'll see only black boxes without speakers sometimes.

Edit: Here is a photo of my exact setup I play tuba into : https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/lonlonmilklover/KIMG0069_zpsesjy5t36.jpg
 
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lonlonmilklover said:
Ah, therein lies my next embarrassingly green question:

When I said Output Speaker, this is actually what I meant, a Johnson 15b: http://gsfanatic.com/aas_hirdetes_temp/pic/256169_p1020576.jpg

Is this actually called an "amp" rather than a "speaker" ? That confuses me, because in several music equipment stores, I'll see a sign that says "amps" and I'll see only black boxes without speakers sometimes.

Edit: Here is a photo of my exact setup I play tuba into : https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/lonlonmilklover/KIMG0069_zpsesjy5t36.jpg
Click to expand...

HA! Guys and their flakey jargon eh? Fortunately you are talking to Mr Pedantic PITA!

Over here we call JUST an amplifier in a sleeve a "head" and the whole speaker+ amp shooting match a "combo" You have a combo there so all is cool.

So, first try the RS adaptor and mic straight into the amplifier. It might not be ever so lively but it should actually feedback if you crank the gain.
Report back.

Dave.
 
Ahhh many thanks, hahaha. I like these hot tips and advice, they're great fun!

I took your advice - I tried the mic through the adaptor straight into the amplifier - sounds foul and uncivilized! Rattling, Crackling Plastic and harsh vibrations!

However, my electric bass guitar sounds fine through the amplifier.

I then hooked up the mic and adaptor straight into my pro tools recording mixer, and it records and sounds lovely!

I'm so very confused by this; does this imply that this Bass Practice Amp indeed works for a bass, but for some reason, it can't handle a Tuba through a Mic? >.< lol!
 
"I'm so very confused by this; does this imply that this Bass Practice Amp indeed works for a bass, but for some reason, it can't handle a Tuba through a Mic? >.< lol! "
I would not have thought so, the two instruments cover much the same range. What does the mic sound like on speech though the amp? Can you snaffle a second mic and record the tuba/amp combination? Then post a clip, you can attach as an MP3.

Dave.
 
Here we go:

A) 0:01 Voice through Mic, to cable, to XLR-to-1/4" adaptor, to Amplified Speaker Input, (then into 2nd mic, to Pro Tools MIC input)

B) 0:05 Bass Guitar, to cable, to Crybaby Bass Wah Pedal, to cable, into Pro Tools Mixer LINE input.

C) 0:15 Bass Guitar, to cable, to Crybaby Bass Wah Pedal, to cable, to Amplified Speaker Input. (then into 2nd mic, to Pro Tools MIC input)

D) 0:25 Tuba, to Mic, to Pro Tools Mixer MIC input.

E) 0:35 Tuba, to Mic, to cable, to XLR-to-1/4" adaptor, to Crybaby Bass Wah Pedal, to cable, to Pro Tools Mixer LINE input

F) 0:45 Tuba, to Mic, to cable, to XLR-to-1/4" adaptor, to Amplified Speaker Input. (then into 2nd mic, to Pro Tools MIC input)


... Since sample F sounds so horribly foul playing the Tuba through the Amplified Speaker, I didn't even bother making a sample with the Tuba and Wah Pedal through the Amplified Speaker, as you can surely imagine the horror, the rattling, and the crackling. >.<
 

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Right! Well even these knackered old ears can hear the "crack" in the two wind clips.

I thought bass guitar was THE most destructive instrument? I was wrong it seems! Tubas are murder!
Your levels are very hot, need to come down by 15dB or so but the cracking is not due to digital overload AFAICS. No, I suspect either the amp driving the speaker is clipping or the speaker is hitting the stops.

I can only suggest you try tuba repro through a MUCH more powerful system. 100watts is really just a practice amp for bass G and peeps gig with 400W plus and use very high power rated speaker systems, 1000W on a 4-500W amp.

Sorry friend, I just don't think you can do this with the kit you have.

Dave.
 
Okiedokie. Many thanks for this diagnosis!

I'm not too heartbroken as this little practice amp I am using was only $59 on sale, years ago.

I'm looking perhaps at a Mackie Thump 12 as a bit of an upgrade to get more serious.
 
lonlonmilklover said:
Okiedokie. Many thanks for this diagnosis!

I'm not too heartbroken as this little practice amp I am using was only $59 on sale, years ago.

I'm looking perhaps at a Mackie Thump 12 as a bit of an upgrade to get more serious.
Click to expand...

Ok, well I am way out of touch with modern bass kit (I am an ole root and fifther!) but there is a section on the forum where they will help I am sure.
The guitar amp company I am rtrd from have not as yet got into any serious bass repro (tho' there IS a 200W head that can be pressed into such service..'King heavy mind!)

Much luck mate.

Dave.
 
From that clip I'm not totally sure the problem isn't the mic itself or the connection.
To me the voice sample is rattly too although not anywhere as bad as the others.
For that matter ..... the bass direct does much the same thing although, again, not as badly as the tuba.
Lastly, I'm not in the room but some of that rattling sounds like things in the room vibrating.

Things I would try:
First off ..... find another mic that you KNOW is good even if you have to borrow one.
If a known good mic does it then I would try bypassing the amp altogether and run things direct into the recording interface. That way you can tell if it's that amp or not.
If it IS the amp as ECC83 suggests, then the nastiness will go away in your recording.
If it's still there, then the problem is not the amp ..... if it goes away then you've narrowed it down to the amp.

Lastly, do you only run bass or tuba?
Or do you sing thru this also?

If it's ONLY bass and tuba then I don't think I'd go with the Thump which is a PA speaker with a horn.
For bass and tuba you don't really need the horn and will, in fact, possibly damage it with the high energy distortion artifacts of a bass instrument.
And micing it for recording is problematic because you have a horn and a woofer that both need to be captured.
I'd look more at small bass combos of which there are many.

If this is for live use I'd want at least a couple hundred watts RMS.
I am a bass player and I consider 200 watts a minimum for live use and really ..... that's not enough for some situations.

But if it's for recording I wouldn't use an amp at all ..... just record direct into the interface. You can still use the wah and go into an interface instead of an amp.
 
Your ears are obviously far better than mine Bob but I THOUGHT OP said he had recorded the tuba straight into the AI and it was fine? That would rule out a faulty mic.

Dave.
 
Actually, unless I'm misreading this, which is possible, he said going direct was NOT fine.
lonlonmilklover said:
If I Mic my Tuba with a standard Shure SM57, and use a Radio shack XLR to 1/4" to be able to go directly from the Tuba to the Crybaby Bass Wah Pedal, THEN into my Pro Tools LE DigiRack 002, something odd happens. The sound I am getting has both a strong muddy and strong metallic tinny static sound with crackles and pops when playing - almost similar to the crackles and harsh sounds you hear when you are in the red, spiking your levels. However, according to the pro tools mixer - I'm in the healthy green, nowhere near spiking.

...
Click to expand...
so if I've have that right, then I would still suspect the mic or cable-connection ..... That is, IF I have that right.
 
[Edited for typos]

Yes Lt. Bob, you described sample E above; it wasn't too long of a sample, but it's just not wonderful sounding through the Crybaby. Sample D is the Tuba directly into Pro Tools w/ the same Mic used into the Amp.

If I understand ecc83's suggestions, something surely about going into the Crybaby isn't the best idea without going through some kind of pre-amp or a mixer to "tone down" the violent Tuba signal.

However, I see you mentioned that to you, there is some rattle even in the voice through the Amp. I'm attaching a Voice sample through that same Mic I used (SM57) directly into the Pro Tools Input.

It's a new Mic, used for a total of less than 3 hours of recording tests, never yet been dropped or abused, etc.

To answer your question about live vs. recording, this would be purely for live performances for just Tuba, Bass, and other semi low Horns such as Euphonium, Trombone, and Bass Trombone. Thanks already for calling out the horn of the Thump as an issue!
 

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nah .... that clips sounds fine although it seems to have enormous bottom end.
It may be counter intuitive but you might want to use a low-cut maybe around 40hz to take some of that out.
The idea of cutting some of the extreme lows might seem like something you shouldn't do since it's a bass instrument but there's not a lot of useful stuff that low and it may help.

As foir the pre-amp thing before the wah wah ..... that adapter you have simply converts the low-impedance to high which is what the pedal needs.

If I were asked I would have thought that would be sufficient BUT it does not raise the level which a pre-amp could do.

It MAY be that the pedal does need a hotter signal than it's getting right now.
If so, there's lots of cheap pres that would do it like ART has one for around 40 bucks.
I don't KNOW that the pedal needs more signal, I'm just speculating, but it very well could be the case and, if so, a pre would fix you up.
 
I agree with Bob on the Thump - it's low end spec is 50Hz - that's not even low E on the bass.

I'm wondering if the problem with the wah is also frequency related - can it really handle the low end? Per the Jim Dunlop site, the low end resonant frequency (heel down) is 350-450Hz.
 
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