Need help with deciding what to do with my small room

[mhacker]

Hello you guys, thank you in advance for helping me.

I've attached a 2D version of my room, because unfortunately I'm not familiar with 3D drawing. my room is a little bit strange. as it's been shown in the picture, it's not rectangular. so first of all, what should I do about the angles below or above 90 degrees?

the height to my room is 280 cm. I checked the dimensions in amroc - the room mode calculator and I saw its not that appropriate! should we consider the dimensions before we do any acoustical treatments or after installing them? with my room being that small, is it wise to make something like a vocal booth or a quiet room within the room? I was thinking about my options: I can reduce the height by installing what we call a "fake ceiling" (I don't know the exact term) or I can make a room within the room with this dimensions: L: 200-250 cm/ W:150-165 cm/ H: 240-280 cm. what should I do? I just need a decent room to record vocals.

the walls of the room (about 8-10 cm wide) are made of bricks and cement, without any air gap in between. but if I'm making a room within the room, I would use drywall (not sure if prefabricated plaster walls we are using in Iran qualify as Drywall!) with the width of 10cm, then a 5cm layer of air gap and after that I'll be using Rock wool (80 kg/m3) with 5 cm width ( rock wool 2*1 m panel slabs with 5cm width). I'll be using acoustic panel as needed after I install the rock wool inside the wooden (1*1m or 2*1m) frames. am I using the right materials? would you be kind to help me figure out what should I do?

 

[mjbphotos]

You've got two basic problems already - your room is almost a cube, and it's too small. You don't want to make it any smaller by making a 'room within a room'. I assume there's a door in one of those walls ...
What are you trying to record in there? If it is just vocals, you can try to make it as dead as possible because its too small to have good natural reverberation - similar to when people think they sound great singing in the bathroom because of all the tile surface reverb, but in a recording is sounds like sh*t.
Bass traps should be at least 4" (10cm) thick and you're going to need a lot of them - all 4 wall-wall corners, and the ceiling-wall corners, and some 2" thick panels on the centers of the walls if there's room.

 

[mhacker]

You've got two basic problems already - your room is almost a cube, and it's too small. You don
t want to make it any smaller by making a 'room within a room'. I assume there's a door in one of those walls ...
What are you trying to record in there? If it is just vocals, you can try to make it as dead as possible because its too small to have good natural reverberation - similar to when people think they sound great singing in the bathroom because of all the tile surface reverb, but in a recording is sounds like sh*t.
Bass traps should be at least 4" (10cm) thick and you're going to need a lot of them - all 4 wall-wall corners, and the ceiling-wall corners, and some 2" thick panels on the centers of the walls if there's room.

I myself assumed that it would be useless to make a room within room, because I don't have enough space to put my stuff around the room already, let alone dividing it into two smaller pieces! Ok, I will use bass traps in the corners, but what about using rock wool for insulation? some told me to use glass wool instead of rock wool because it's cheaper and it'll give you the same result of using rock wool; is that correct?!

what should I do with the cube? I can reduce the height of the ceiling, would that help?

 

[mjbphotos]

'Glass wool' - not familiar with that term. If you mean 'pink stuff' - usual fluffy insulation, not its not dense enough for bass trapping until you get it about 12"(?) thick.

Hang a 'cloud' from the ceiling - minimum 2" thick rock wool.

 

[mhacker]

'Glass wool' - not familiar with that term. If you mean 'pink stuff' - usual fluffy insulation, not its not dense enough for bass trapping until you get it about 12"(?) thick.

Hang a 'cloud' from the ceiling - minimum 2" thick rock wool.

thanks for taking time and answering my question. I don't know pink stuff! but here's a link to glass wool: Glass wool - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was thinking about bass traps made of Foam, are they not good? do I have to slant the walls and make the bass traps my self? should I use rock wool (mineral wool) to do so? I have something like this in my mind when talking about creating the bass traps for your special use:

or should I use normal bass traps, as you mentioned, like this:

I have another question: is the density of the rock wool (80 kg/m3) appropriate for sound insulation?
I read in "small rooms acoustics" topic that the minimum best for insulation and acoustic treatment is 20% of 5 surfaces of the room, that leaves me with about 13-15 m2. should I use the same amount of rock wool and other acoustical panel? or should I use rock wool on the entire 5 surfaces and then treat 20% of the surfaces with acoustic treatment?
thank you in advance. I'm aware that's a lot to ask, but I don't have access to any reliable refrences except English home studio designing forums.

 

[mjbphotos]

Glass wool - pink (or yellow) thermal insulation. Note: THERMAL = heat, not sound.

There are threads here (and you can find youtubes) on how to build bass traps like the ones in the picture. Don't waste your money on foam - until it gets super thick, it doesn't absorb low frequencies. Start with corner traps (floor to ceiling), ceiling cloud, see how it sounds.

 

[mhacker]

Glass wool - pink (or yellow) thermal insulation. Note: THERMAL = heat, not sound.

There are threads here (and you can find youtubes) on how to build bass traps like the ones in the picture. Don't waste your money on foam - until it gets super thick, it doesn't absorb low frequencies. Start with corner traps (floor to ceiling), ceiling cloud, see how it sounds.

thanks a lot. I wanted to use acoustic foam panel for absorption and diffusion treats, not to treat the low freqs. you said I have to make the room as dead as possible and to use lots of bass traps, so here's the situation : if I'm going to use lots of bass traps, I cannot afford to insulate the whole surfaces of the room by rock wool; I'd be able to insulate some parts of the room ( about 20-50 % of the 5 surfaces of the room and I'll be using carpet as the floor padding). does this plan seems OK? you told me to "Hang a 'cloud' from the ceiling - minimum 2" thick rock wool"; what do you mean by cloud?

 

[Supercreep]

Much depends on what you want to record in the room. Drums will be hard. It's a usable space, but what you are doing with it should drive your treatment considerations. Mjb made a similar observation yesterday.

 

[mhacker]

Much depends on what you want to record in the room. Drums will be hard. It's a usable space, but what you are doing with it should drive your treatment considerations. Mjb made a similar observation yesterday.

thank you for your answers. I'm going to use the room for recording vocals, mainly; and to practice singing without irritating neighbors! do I need to insulate the whole room by rock wool? or should I use acoustic treatments on some parts of the walls and the ceiling?

 

[mjbphotos]

Ok, you finally told us what you want to use the room for - recording vocals. Note that NO AMOUNT of trapping is going to 'soundproof' the room - your neighbors will still hear you if they can hear you now. An adequate amount of bass traps (not every surface!) will deaden the sound and absorb some of it. With brick/cement walls, there should not be that much sound transmission anyway.

If you are using this room ONLY for recording vocals, you can get away with a lot less trapping. If you want to also do mixing in the room, or recording other things, then you'll need more traps.

Depending on what mic you are using, you can probably get away with just traps in the front corners and front wall, maybe also need some on the rear wall. By facing the traps, extra sound waves you are creating with your voice are getting absorbed by the traps, so will not reflect back to the rear and side walls and then back into the mic. Some people just buy one of those mic stand reflection devices instead.
A 'cloud' is a trap hung above you (from the ceiling).

 

[mhacker]

Ok, you finally told us what you want to use the room for - recording vocals. Note that NO AMOUNT of trapping is going to 'soundproof' the room - your neighbors will still hear you if they can hear you now. An adequate amount of bass traps (not every surface!) will deaden the sound and absorb some of it. With brick/cement walls, there should not be that much sound transmission anyway.

If you are using this room ONLY for recording vocals, you can get away with a lot less trapping. If you want to also do mixing in the room, or recording other things, then you'll need more traps.

Depending on what mic you are using, you can probably get away with just traps in the front corners and front wall, maybe also need some on the rear wall. By facing the traps, extra sound waves you are creating with your voice are getting absorbed by the traps, so will not reflect back to the rear and side walls and then back into the mic. Some people just buy one of those mic stand reflection devices instead.
A 'cloud' is a trap hung above you (from the ceiling).

I thought I've had included my goals and my reasons for having a home studio- sorry about that! yes, for now my main goal is to record vocals, but in near future I'll be needing to do mixing . I thought it was possible to insulate my room in a way that I do not bother the neighbors, so you say I should give up?! the walls are made of brick and cement, but given that I can hear the neighbors listening to music, they probably can hear me too. my mic is Rode NT1-A, but I assumed that if I use the appropriate insulation materials, I wouldn't need a mic Isolator panel.

 

[mjbphotos]

You're slowly giving us info ... so you slowly get answers!

Start with the traps in front corners and front wall. Listen to your recordings, then decide if you need more traps on the back wall. For mixing, your room is just too small, but the cloud and traps in the back corners would be next. Mixing with headphones might be your best bet - an dmixing wiht headphones is a major compromise.

 

[Supercreep]

Use an RE-20 or an SM7 and (for vocals) the room acoustics become significantly less important. Beware ribbon and omni mics, beware room mics and especially compressing them. Close mic sources as much as possible. Consider using amp models for electric guitar and bass.

Mixing will still be an issue, and serious broadband absorbption is called for to treat it. However, even if you don't treat the room to an ideal state you can learn the room and how to compensate for it's shortcomings if you are patient and listen critically, making decisions based on what you know (sometimes in defiance of what you hear).

I would avoid mixing with headphones, but YMMV.

As for neighbors, keeping them happy is easier than soundproofing to any significant degree. Buy them beer and pizza. Work out times with them where it is okay for you to rock out, and always respect them and knock it off early. Make sure they can contact you if noise is a problem. You can work it out.

 

[mhacker]

Use an RE-20 or an SM7 and (for vocals) the room acoustics become significantly less important. Beware ribbon and omni mics, beware room mics and especially compressing them. Close mic sources as much as possible. Consider using amp models for electric guitar and bass.

Mixing will still be an issue, and serious broadband absorbption is called for to treat it. However, even if you don't treat the room to an ideal state you can learn the room and how to compensate for it's shortcomings if you are patient and listen critically, making decisions based on what you know (sometimes in defiance of what you hear).

I would avoid mixing with headphones, but YMMV.

As for neighbors, keeping them happy is easier than soundproofing to any significant degree. Buy them beer and pizza. Work out times with them where it is okay for you to rock out, and always respect them and knock it off early. Make sure they can contact you if noise is a problem. You can work it out.

You're slowly giving us info ... so you slowly get answers!

Start with the traps in front corners and front wall. Listen to your recordings, then decide if you need more traps on the back wall. For mixing, your room is just too small, but the cloud and traps in the back corners would be next. Mixing with headphones might be your best bet - and mixing with headphones is a major compromise.

thanks again. I giving you info slowly because I'm really confused! there is lots of information out there, and believe me when I say I've spend my last two weeks reading all kinds of articles in diffrent forums about acoustic and I've been browsing in youtube to find tutorials about making a home studio.

the first thing I did : I talked to my neighbors and gave them my number just in case they want me to stop making noise! that seemed a little weird, because last month when I tried to tell my neighbor to stop listening to very loud music at 2 a.m., he didn't even open the door!

I assumed Rode NT1 is a condenser mic and appropriate to record vocals. unfortunately, I cannot afford to buy a new mic for now, I'll do that in the future if needed.

I have AKG K77 studio headphones, not for mixing, but for monitoring when I'm behind the mic, and to check if the mix sound OK in headphones, after I've mixed with my monitoring speakers.

you said :"Start with the traps in front corners and front wall". by front wall you mean the wall I'm facing when recording vocals or the wall behind the monitoring speakers? my next step would surely be bass traps. do you suggest I buy the trap or make them myself?

if I'm using ceiling cloud, considering the height of my room being 2.8 m ( 9.18 ft), how much space should I put between the cloud and the ceiling? I was thinking if I make it about 40cm the height would be reduce to about 2.4m, which is appropriate height for a room at this size according to some articles I read; what do think about this?

another question: would you use rock wool slab panels to insulate the room, if it were you? I'm asking this because it wasn't clear to me whether you agree with rock wool or not.

 

[mjbphotos]

Yes- front wall is the wall you are facing when recording.
The cloud height sounds about right.
IF you've got an unlimited budget, by all means buy professionally-made bass traps and the hardware to hang them. If you're like the rest of us (limited budget), it makes more sense to make them yourself.

 

[mhacker]

Yes- front wall is the wall you are facing when recording.
The cloud height sounds about right.
IF you've got an unlimited budget, by all means buy professionally-made bass traps and the hardware to hang them. If you're like the rest of us (limited budget), it makes more sense to make them yourself.

thank you very much. no I don't have an unlimited budget ( wish I had!) but I think I'll be able to make the traps I need. there's just another problem: where should I put the monitoring speakers, considering the placement of the door and the window being as shown in this picture:

I know this placement is going to make trouble; I cannot block the door, thats for sure! but do you think it's a good idea to block the window? I mean is it necessary to do so at all?

besides, the extra photo attached which doesn't include the length and height of the window and the door is the photo I uploaded by mistake, but I couldn't get rid of it.

 

[mjbphotos]

I don't think it matters, anything you do is going to be a compromise.

 

[Supercreep]

The R0DE NTl is not an excellent microphone. It works, though. However, a condenser microphone - even a good one - is going to capture the room in a way that a dynamic won't.

The high quality dynamic microphone will - if you are only recording vocals - make it much much much easier to get a good sound in a small and/or poorly treated room. It is merely a suggestion, welcome to HR.

Rock wool in the 3-8 pcf range will do a great job, but it's harder to make presentable than rigid fiberglass panels. If you are building frames for rock wool panels, remember to leave as much open on the sides as the face.

If you can get a lot of rock wool cheap, look into superchunks. If you need to really treat your room, broadband coverage is what you need, and a lot of it. It's easy to put HF sparkle back in.

-SC

 

[mhacker]

The R0DE NTl is not an excellent microphone. It works, though. However, a condenser microphone - even a good one - is going to capture the room in a way that a dynamic won't.

The high quality dynamic microphone will - if you are only recording vocals - make it much much much easier to get a good sound in a small and/or poorly treated room. It is merely a suggestion, welcome to HR.


Rock wool in the 3-8 pcf range will do a great job, but it's harder to make presentable than rigid fiberglass panels. If you are building frames for rock wool panels, remember to leave as much open on the sides as the face.

If you can get a lot of rock wool cheap, look into superchunks. If you need to really treat your room, broadband coverage is what you need, and a lot of it. It's easy to put HF sparkle back in.

-SC

thanks alot. I saw some tutorials on making DIY superchunks, It's an option only if I'm making 30*30*42cm pieces of each rock wool panel (2'*4' panels, or turning each panel into 16 pieces). would that make a acceptable superchunk bass trap?
also I'm gonna use rock wool panel on each wall, but I don't know how many panels I should use on each wall? I mean I've seen tutorials in which they use 1 or 2 panels on the walls of a medium-sized room. is that enough for me, considering the size of the room and the fact that the neighborhood is a little bit noisy? Can I use a thin layer of plywood on the front surface of each panel which is facing the inside of the room?
and by HF sparkle you mean diffuser pannels? I'm sorry I'm not used to all of therse terms yet.

 

[mjbphotos]

No, you don't want to use plywood fronts on the bass traps. Use cloth that allows the sound waves to pass thorugh - if you can blow through the cloth, it'll work. I think you're referencing traps for the first reflection points (on side walls) - these would be placed for mixing, using a mirror held at the wall to judge where to place them - sitting at your mixing spot, the mirror should show your monitor speakers.