Simple analog recording woes

[Naterade]

Hi I am new here and I need some advice. Can I use an ehx 45000 as a recorder with a small behringer mixer, the xenyx 502? I got the xenyx because I needed phantom power for a condensers mic, a sterling sp something or other. I'm afraid the mixer doesn't have enough power. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ecc83]

Hi I am new here and I need some advice. Can I use an ehx 45000 as a recorder with a small behringer mixer, the xenyx 502? I got the xenyx because I needed phantom power for a condensers mic, a sterling sp something or other. I'm afraid the mixer doesn't have enough power. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.

Don't know the ehx 45000 but if it has line inputs it should work with the Berry.
However! I only learned a few months ago that the X 502 had low voltage phantom power. Can't remember if it was 24 or even 12 volts! The later marks might have corrected this.

This is unforgiveable of course but then I simply cannot understand anyone buying a "mixer" or AI with just a single mic input!

The issue is pretty easy to prove, does the mic cause the LED meters to move? Do you get a signal out of the headphone jack? If not almost certainly low spook juice volts. So, chop in the 502 for the 802 or better.

This thread also demonstrates what I KEEP saying again and again. No matter HOW nooby a recording nooby noob you be...FFS buy a testmeter!

Dave.

 

[witzendoz]

Enough Power? Are we talking phantom or something else?

Alan.

 

[ecc83]

Enough Power? Are we talking phantom or something else?

Alan.

Yes, phantom power. Although strictly speaking I should have said "voltage" (even tho' "power" is proportional of course to V squared into constant R) .

I think it was Bobbsy some months ago that pointed out to me that the Behringer X502 had substantially lower than 48V? This might not be a problem with some, perhaps many capacitor microphones. My ESI 1010e interface only puts out 24V unless an additional PSU is used. EVEN THO! The front panel has "48 volts" emblazed upon it. I can just about forgive Bellringers in a very cheap one lung mixer but in a multi-track, rack mount AI*? No, modern DC-DC converters are cheap, tiny and very efficient. My AKG Perception 150s however work fine on the ESI.

*If, BTW, any of you see a 1010e rack unit going cheap be a bit wary. Apart from the spook juice issue, the MIDI side is not very reliable (which is a shame because it is one of few AIs with 4 midi ports) Setting the thing up, drivers etc, causes some loss of hair and the balanced mic input configuration is just weird! That said it does give good sound quality, I only have the 2496, KA6 and 8i6 with which to compare it but it is at least as good as any of those.

Offer no more than a nifty. They were only a bit over £100 at Thomanns some time ago anyway.

Dave.

 

[witzendoz]

I have used many small Behringer mixers for lecture recordings over the years and never had a phantom issue, however they are earlier versions of the mixer. I wonder if it's to do with the power supply for various countries with different mains voltage?

Anyway, have you actually put a meter on the mixer to see what phantom you are getting? Another thing people don't realise is that the mic cables quality also relates to how much voltage gets to thew mic, especially over longer cables.

What symptoms are you getting with the low voltage, if it is low?

Alan.

 

[ecc83]

I have used many small Behringer mixers for lecture recordings over the years and never had a phantom issue, however they are earlier versions of the mixer. I wonder if it's to do with the power supply for various countries with different mains voltage?

Anyway, have you actually put a meter on the mixer to see what phantom you are getting? Another thing people don't realise is that the mic cables quality also relates to how much voltage gets to thew mic, especially over longer cables.

What symptoms are you getting with the low voltage, if it is low?

Alan.

As you might expect Alan I am right there with you on people measuring things!

I am sorry however that I must comment about other matters?

Mains supply voltage will have no effect at all since all the mixers are fed from their own little line lump PSU. This will either be universal or supplied in the correct form for any particular country.

In any event the "raw" supply will probably be regulated inside the mixer. Phantom power (if 48V) will be developed using some form of DC-DC converter.

Microphone cables can have no effect on phantom voltage. The most a capacitor mic might draw is 10mA (almost none do) and the cable would have to insert a resistance of 100 Ohms to cause a voltage drop of just one volt! Even a 100mtr mic cable will have a loop resistance far below 100 Ohms and in fact be quite hard to measure with any accuracy on a conventional digital meter.

Very long, over 100mtrs, cables MIGHT have sufficient CAPACITANCE to cause a dB or so roll off at 20kHz but don't sweat it.

About the only thing a cheap cable might lack is adequate shielding, a very open braid. Even this will cause no trouble in most situations (we used to use twisted clear mains lead for mics many years ago. Mind you the mics WERE 30Ohms and the valve pres had 1:100 input traffs and a top end 3dB down at 10kHz or so!) but leave you prey to RFI.

Dave.

 

[witzendoz]

As you might expect Alan I am right there with you on people measuring things!

Mains supply voltage will have no effect at all since all the mixers are fed from their own little line lump PSU. This will either be universal or supplied in the correct form for any particular country.

Assuming each country has the same quality of power pack, which I was suggesting.

In any event the "raw" supply will probably be regulated inside the mixer. Phantom power (if 48V) will be developed using some form of DC-DC converter.

Which if this is the case means I am talking rubbish above LOL, it was only a thought.

Microphone cables can have no effect on phantom voltage. The most a capacitor mic might draw is 10mA (almost none do) and the cable would have to insert a resistance of 100 Ohms to cause a voltage drop of just one volt! Even a 100mtr mic cable will have a loop resistance far below 100 Ohms and in fact be quite hard to measure with any accuracy on a conventional digital meter.

Very long, over 100mtrs, cables MIGHT have sufficient CAPACITANCE to cause a dB or so roll off at 20kHz but don't sweat it.

About the only thing a cheap cable might lack is adequate shielding, a very open braid. Even this will cause no trouble in most situations (we used to use twisted clear mains lead for mics many years ago. Mind you the mics WERE 30Ohms and the valve pres had 1:100 input traffs and a top end 3dB down at 10kHz or so!) but leave you prey to RFI.

Dave.

Actually the bad insulation on cheap cables has caused me trouble in the past, I could not figure it out until I used a cable tester with some decent volts (9v) that showed up a slight cross current through the core insulation, the cheap cables were then cut up and placed in the rubbish bin.

Cheers
Alan.

 

[ecc83]

Assuming each country has the same quality of power pack, which I was suggesting.



Which if this is the case means I am talking rubbish above LOL, it was only a thought.



Actually the bad insulation on cheap cables has caused me trouble in the past, I could not figure it out until I used a cable tester with some decent volts (9v) that showed up a slight cross current through the core insulation, the cheap cables were then cut up and placed in the rubbish bin.

Cheers
Alan.

Ha! No, not rubbish Al! A perfectly logical conclusion if you have not , like me, spent 50years in electronics! I bet you can run rings around ME in your profession?

BTW, the cable with the funny currents was probably loaded with a conductive graphite grease. Bloody awful stuff that was (is?) used to reduce cable microphony.

As an additional note. You can buy very cheap twin twisted pair cable with a foil shield and a bare copper drain wire. This stuff is the dog's whatsits for "static" wiring in a studio, e.g. links to and from a desk to a jackfield. The cable is usually only ~3mm in diameter and so you can get a lot in a D connector. Despite it being very low cost there is absolutely no performance penalty in fact foil is a more complete RF shield than braid.

Not so good for "moving" mic and guitar cables though.

Dave.