Closed Headphones for recording violin

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Hi all,
I'm thinking about buying a couple of closed headphones, budget 30-60 Euros.

The problem I currently have with my Sennheiser HD 457 (which I kinda like) is that they are open.
I'm overdubbing myself multiple times with a violin and, having the instrument fairly close to my ear I have to keep the volume of the previous takes quite high.
The mic (NT2-A) is also quite close to both the instrument and to the headphones (that can't be helped, unless I chop my head off...), so the sound of either the tempo click or the previous takes bleeds into the recording.

I've read good things of the AGK K121, but those are half-open (I fear I'll run into the same issue).
I was thinking I coul buy either the K44 or the K512 MkII.
Are those any good for the intended use? is the structure all-plastic (looks kinda flimsy to me...)?
Are there good alternatives in this price range?
Thanks in advance.
 
I don't really know exactly how to mic a violin and I certainly don't play one... but I'm thinking that (once you have closed headphones) assuming you're right handed and thus the violin is off to your left side slightly and so is the mic, that I'd be monitoring almost exclusively through the right can to minimise any potential bleed via the left can which would (I assume) be closer to the mic. And obviously as low as you can get away with, with as few tracks in that particular frequency range (ie. other violin tracks) playing as you can get away with.

Every little bit helps...
 
Far better would be IEMs - there are some quite cheap Sennheisers that have a neutral-ish tone. If you use the squiddgy foam rather than the rubbery seals they will keep the click in quite well, and you don't even need them that loud. I use them for overdubbing sax parts. When playing live I use Shure 215s, but the Sennheisers at 1/5th the cost are pretty good.
 
Armistice said:
I don't really know exactly how to mic a violin and I certainly don't play one... but I'm thinking that (once you have closed headphones) assuming you're right handed and thus the violin is off to your left side slightly and so is the mic, that I'd be monitoring almost exclusively through the right can to minimise any potential bleed via the left can which would (I assume) be closer to the mic. And obviously as low as you can get away with, with as few tracks in that particular frequency range (ie. other violin tracks) playing as you can get away with.

Every little bit helps...
Click to expand...

erm... actually, that's not how it works.
You hold the violin on your left shoulder, irrespective of the fact that you're right- or left-handed; the violin is slightly tilted clockwise looking from behind (since it's resting on your left shoulder & clavicle), so the sound goes towards the top-right.
Thus, you'd want your mic slightly above your head, slightly in front of you and slightly to the right, with the stand further away so it doesn't impede the movements of your bow - you need quite a lot of room in order to move freely.
This way, the mic can point directly to the violin's "f"s, because that's where the sound comes from.
It's near your right ear, but pointed more towards the left one (the right ear is off-axis).
Don't know if it's better to risk picking up a (nearer) closed can from behind of a (further away) open can from the side of the opening...
 
rob aylestone said:
Far better would be IEMs - there are some quite cheap Sennheisers that have a neutral-ish tone. If you use the squiddgy foam rather than the rubbery seals they will keep the click in quite well, and you don't even need them that loud. I use them for overdubbing sax parts. When playing live I use Shure 215s, but the Sennheisers at 1/5th the cost are pretty good.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine gave me this very same advice, mainly because closed headphones can mess up intonation, but, since I'd not be the only one using them, I think headphones would be better.
 
If you like the Sennheiser sound (and I do too) have a listen to the HD 229 B.

They have a nice smooth sound, closed back like you want and a relatively small size so they don't get in the way.
 
"You hold the violin on your left shoulder, irrespective of the fact that you're right- or left-handed;"

Hah!Hah! Thanks for that!
Guitarists, and then almost only ELECTRIC "rock" guitarists are pampered with "left handed" instruments.
I have never held a fiddle in my life but I should think a "wrong hander" could only be a soloist!

I also suspect that if the problem ever cropped up at a serious music school the southpaw would be told in no uncertain terms to "Get the F on with it!"

Dave.
 
Sennheiser HD215 II would be my choice for affordable closed tracking headphones.
 
ecc83 said:
Guitarists, and then almost only ELECTRIC "rock" guitarists are pampered with "left handed" instruments.
I have never held a fiddle in my life but I should think a "wrong hander" could only be a soloist!
[...]
Click to expand...


Since we play near each other (in section), anyone with the violin on the "wrong" side would be a hindrance: the movements of the bow would be out of phase, with the potential for collisions.
Also in modern orchestras the violins are almost always on the left side of the hemicicle, which means that their "f"s are directed towards the audience; now a new trend is emerging, that is to put I vl., vc., vla. and then the second violins, on the other side. I'm not much in favour of this thing, aven though it has the benefit of putting cellos near the first violins and double basses behind both, giving the Ist violin a strong rhythmic support.
OTOH you have the sound of the 2nd violins directed towards the back of the stage, but I digress.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
 
Indeed.

I believe one of the tasks for the first violinist is to work out the bowings so they all perform in unison, both for appearance and also to avoid tangled bows and elbows.
 
Bobbsy said:
Indeed.

I believe one of the tasks for the first violinist is to work out the bowings so they all perform in unison, both for appearance and also to avoid tangled bows and elbows.
Click to expand...

Tangles are not an issue, different phrasings are.
It's only very sparingly that you actively seek different bowings, for instance in order not to break up long notes or phrases: in those cases changing bow asynchronously (e.g. in a phrase made of quavers the inside player of each stand can change bow an eighth before/after) avoids sound gaps in said long notes/phrases.
 
Thanks! I like learning new things. I've enjoyed (and even miked) violin sections but never thought through the effect of different bowings on the phrasing but now you say it, it makes complete sense.

...though I think tangles could also be an issue in some of the tiny, crowded orchestra pits I've seen used in theatres!
 
I use a few cheap pairs of closed back headphones, mainly bought as extras when recording the talent school that comes in quite often, aged 6years and up (sigh!) Up to 10 vocals at once so I have about 12 pairs handy. The 2 cheap pairs I like OK are the Sennheiser HD201 and the AKG K77. The HD201 feels better but the cable is crap and is always tangled, the K77 has the cables from 1 side and ids much more business like.

When I record violin, cello or double bass I suggest to the player that they only put the phones on 1 ear so they can hear the intonation from their own instrument better, it seems to work for them.

Alan.
 
Bobbsy said:
...though I think tangles could also be an issue in some of the tiny, crowded orchestra pits I've seen used in theatres!
Click to expand...

It's a wonder in this day and age they don't make them wear safety glasses in case they get a poke in the eye from a bow.

Alan.
 
If bleed is the real issue then think LOUD guitars - quality earbuds covered by ear muffs of the safety sort.
Headphones are a real horror with my 'cello: I end up clanking them against the neck & that is worse than bleed!
 
witzendoz said:
It's a wonder in this day and age they don't make them wear safety glasses in case they get a poke in the eye from a bow.

Alan.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

I have a friend in Sydney who's the Operations Manager for the Australian Opera and Ballet Orchestra. It always seems like half her job is negotiating more space for the orchestra then apologising/arranging/appeasing/cutting the number of players when they turn up at the auditorium and find they were lied to about space.

Don't tangle with her though...outside work her hobby is roller derby where I gather she's a fiend!
 
Bobbsy said:
Indeed.

I have a friend in Sydney who's the Operations Manager for the Australian Opera and Ballet Orchestra. It always seems like half her job is negotiating more space for the orchestra then apologising/arranging/appeasing/cutting the number of players when they turn up at the auditorium and find they were lied to about space.

Don't tangle with her though...outside work her hobby is roller derby where I gather she's a fiend!
Click to expand...

Ah, the Sydney Opera House orchestra pit... I always feel sorry for the poor sods down there, under mesh in case something falls from the stage. Looks like a hell hole... but then there are many aspects of the SOH that are less than desirable from a performance aspect - nice building though.
 
Armistice said:
Ah, the Sydney Opera House orchestra pit... I always feel sorry for the poor sods down there, under mesh in case something falls from the stage. Looks like a hell hole... but then there are many aspects of the SOH that are less than desirable from a performance aspect - nice building though.
Click to expand...

Actually I was at the concert hall, which is a different room from where they do opera and ballet, a week or so back. Rach 3 + something by Shostakovic - I think I counted 80-90 people all up, including the "rhythm section" who have one of the cushiest jobs going, for mine...

I was expecting more people... not sure of the standard make up of a full orchestra, but it seemed light on woodwinds to me.
 
Yup...although her biggest complaints are about the floating stage thing they sometimes have for the Handa Opera on Sydney Harbour. She's done several, always agrees a size and shape in advance and then always gets less than agreed when it's built!

Still, it LOOKS pretty!

242338-la-traviata.webp
 
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