Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

[Pinky]

This explains everything.
You're just trying to convince yourself that it's "good enough".

I don't buy gear very often, and were the case strong to go with a tube amp I most definitely would plunk down the coin knowing it would be gear I would be using for a long time. I've owned and played through even better gear than I've owned. Since going totally home based 10 years ago I've slowly pruned and sold my amps/pedals. I've paid for/earned my entry fee into this discussion. You may say, I'm on the-other-side now after having grown up in the old school gear community (shoe gazing, stacks, etc). Yeah, I know this stuff still gets used. I browse the websites and catalogs like the next guy.

This isn't an open/closed case. Not now, not in 2013/2014. Things have taken huge leaps forward, even to my ears in the last 5 years. It just makes sense to me to spend $200 plus addon packs to get thousands upon thousands of dollars in simulated amps. The only way to get that flexibility and quality would be to buy thousands in amps, rack gear, and/or pedals. The cost effectiveness just has to be a major consideration, cannot be stressed enough, and should not be tossed aside. This technology has become a force in the community. It really doesn't care if you like it.

 

[Greg_L]

The problem I have with this new direction you're taking is (getting away from sims for live use which I will always maintain is lame as fuck), the way I see it, all this new technology is driven by mediocrity. It's driven by shmoes in their bedroom that don't have the ear, skill, or budget to utilize good equipment. The real equipment their sims and VSTs are simulating. Sims and plug-ins aren't better, they're just easier and cheaper. I'll give you that. Easier and cheaper. It's easy to fire up your cracked software sims and plug your cheap guitar into a cheap interface. It takes no skill whatsoever to use a sim. Dialing in an amp and miking a real cab takes considerably more practice and skill. It's easy to whip out EZ Drummer and "lay some tracks". It's much more difficult to play and record actual drums. It's cheaper because these things can be bought for relatively nothing, or stolen for literally nothing. What this, and the home recording revolution in general, has done is allowed anyone to get their music out there. That's a double-edged sword. At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, I think it sucks that any jackass can record music and flood cyberspace with it. Sure, I enjoy home-recording and I'm one of the jackasses that home records his crappy music. I at least do it with real gear. I take pride in being as real as possible and practicing what I preach. When I see or hear a band, I want to know what I'm seeing and hearing is really happening. I give that back with my own music. It's a personal thing for me. I think there's something honorable in playing well enough to make it all the way through a track and having your sound dialed in so it doesn't take a ton of DAW tricks to make it sound good. That's what musicians used to do, right? Now it seems everything is super-edited and fuckers plan re-amping before they've even done anything. I've listened to umpteen thousand home recordings at this site and others. I can pretty much tell every time when virtual instruments and sims are used. So that's basically where I'm coming from. I totally understand that not everyone can play or record real drums. Drums are a bitch. I understand that not everyone can blast full stacks in their bedrooms. What I don't understand is any notion that the fakes are in any way better outside of ease and cost. IMO this stuff shouldn't be easy and it shouldn't be cheap. You gotta earn your stripes. If you use fake stuff out of necessity and do a good job with it, I can respect that and support it. If you use fake stuff out of cheap laziness, I can't get with that. And again, I think using fake stuff live is lame as hell.

 

[miroslav]

I eluded to the audiophile blind tests that have been performed... from $1,000/ft speaker wire, to $50 patch cables, to vaporous home theater amps, to high res mixes... all of them fail the blind tests. We don't really have any scientifically performed blind tests for tube vs digital (pedals/amps). It's all anecdotal [if someone has a link to some test results, please post them!]. In the high end playback community they suck this shit up, so simply pointing out use of these products by the deepest pockets / most vested persons in the community as proof of the difference doesn't actually translate to realized benefits. Follow me here? Increase cost and/or use by people doesn't actually guarantee benefit.

Any chance the same is happening here? Any?

Nah.

We can't say tube amps are superior. Any more than we can say sims are. [insert proof supporting either statement here] But one costs a lot of money, one much less. The cost consideration is a huge factor for many people on this forum. We are talking about home recording here, right? [if we can actually set aside the derailing "using sims live" discussion] A professional musician and a home recording artist on this forum overlap in the fact they make music, but likely have more differences than they share things in common. When I plug in I'm not trying to be a professional, I just do this for fun. I don't need top dollar stuff to perform and make good music. I think that describes a huge %% of members here. Listen to the stuff being posted in the mix feedback forum. There's no record contracts being signed there. And with our cheap, crappy, inferior gear we plug along making damn good music.

You're rationalizing your choices. ^^^^

And are you really going to tell me that you need a blindfold to decide between a real tube amp a sim/pod if someone offered them to you....even if by some chance they sounded the same?

It just makes sense to me to spend $200 plus addon packs to get thousands upon thousands of dollars in simulated amps. The only way to get that flexibility and quality would be to buy thousands in amps, rack gear, and/or pedals. The cost effectiveness just has to be a major consideration, cannot be stressed enough, and should not be tossed aside. This technology has become a force in the community. It really doesn't care if you like it.

You're still rationalizing...........

Are we talking about 2-3 amps that pretty much cover 90% of the sweetest tones you will ever want to use....or are we still talking about just convenience and buying something that's an inexpensive, acceptable simulation od the real thing?
Do you really need 85 different amp flavors...and let's face it, of all the amp flavors in your sim collection, do you actually use all 85 flavors on any regular basis....
...or are you mostly trying to dial in a couple of convincing real tube amp tones?
How many add-on packs do you really need to have?

Here's my prediction.....you and a lot of other folks will do the sims thing until it reaches its saturation point....and by then you'll all be older, and start wanting to find something more, and looking for "the tone"...that real tone, not just another sim that everyone else is punching up on their pods and DAWs....and then you'll realize you need something new, something different, and you'll go all "retro" and get a real tube amp, and finally realize what some people were talking about on HR twenty years ago.

The rest of us will be playing our real tube amps during all that time.

I don't say that just to kid around. I've been down all kinds of new technology paths, and some things take hold....but for the majority of stuff when it comes to recording....getting back to basics and real instruments and gear somehow always works and ends up being the best longterm path.
The amps I have now....I will still have 20 years from now. They will not go out of style.
Meanwhile...your curent sims will not be compatible with your new computer OS....and in twenty years, you will have had to upgrade your computer, your OS and your DAW and your sims another 10 times. The hardware pods you owned broke 15 years earlier, and since no one can repair them, you've had to just toss them asside and by new pods...and all the ad-on packs you purchsed over the years, they've been lost somewhere in the digital black-hole of failed drives and forgotten back-ups....or your dog ate the CDs.

My New Year's resolution....I'm gonna buy at least one more real tube amp this year, and it will last a very long time.

 

[miroslav]

Anyway....don't take anything I've said as some attempt to bring you back into the fold. I mean, we're just kicking the can around here, and it's not any kind of real argument, and I don't much care what anyone else uses to play guitar through, and no matter how much new sims technology comes out....I certainly have no plans to unload my amps and replace them with sims.

I just really hope you and other sim-exclusive users are as happy using only sims, as you guys are trying to convince us amp users that you are!

 

[Lt. Bob]

I think another amp I'd like is one of the ToneKings ..... I played thru one last year and it was pretty awesome.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I've had Tone King amps in my sights a few times, it just never panned out.

Not sure exactly what you are after, but considering you mentioned Swart, you may also check out the Savage stuff, and specifically their Macht series amps, which have a similar flavor in some ways to the Swart, that 6V6 growl.
There are three versions now...the Macht 6 with one 6V6 tube, Macht 12 with two or the Macht 24 with four 6V6 tubes.
I have the 12X...and it's a very sweet amp, and pretty loud with the Stage setting, and you can knock it down with the Studio setting....but it's not going to cut it for a bigger club even at Stage setting, unless you mic it.

The Savage tube tremolo is to die for....and it's even better than the one on the Swart amps...deeper and it can go slower. Swart has a mod to slow theirs down more, and I did the mod on my SST....but it's still not as dramatic as the Macht 12X.
That said....I love my Swart, and the Savage....they are similar in their pedigree, but also very different in what they do when you start dialing in the knobs. I almost picked up a used, second Macht 12X just to have...because it's one of the amps I want around for a long time.
The Swart SST is too expensive to have two of.......but I've been considering also some of the smaller Swart amps.


I've also lusted after the Savage Blitz 50 amp....50W, EL34 tubes and lots of balls.

This is why I think it's so funny when people say amps are on the way out. There are now more tube amps then EVER before, and all kinds of brands/models to choose from....and they're all selling, No one is closing up shop becuase of low sales....if anything, there's new builders coming on line all the time.
Just not enough money and time to have a go at all of the different ones out there.......

 

[Greg_L]

These guys have been working on my amps....

Steamboat Ampworks, Home

They're local here in Houston and they make some seriously kick ass stuff. All hand-made. They have some really cool features on their amps and they sound fantastic. Two young guys in a shop doing things the old-school way making a cool product and they've been in business for 5 years now. Not bad for a technology that's going away.

 

[Lt. Bob]

These guys have been working on my amps....

Steamboat Ampworks, Home

They're local here in Houston and they make some seriously kick ass stuff. All hand-made. They have some really cool features on their amps and they sound fantastic. Two young guys in a shop doing things the old-school way making a cool product and they've been in business for 5 years now. Not bad for a technology that's going away.

I've read some rave reviews on Steamboat amps .. they're also pretty cool looking if I remember correctly.

 

[Greg_L]

I've read some rave reviews on Steamboat amps .. they're also pretty cool looking if I remember correctly.

They are. They look amazing. And they're built like tanks. One of their models has a switchable SS/tube rectifier for tight or loose "sag". It's noticeable and really cool. It also will accept any combo of power tubes. You pop in whatever tubes you want and set the bias with an external probe and pot. So easy easy even a Greg can work it! Their one drawback - they're expensive. But hey, it's an all handmade Point-to-point handwired amp. There are no robots or old ladies on an assembly line building these things.

 

[Lt. Bob]

One of their models has a switchable SS/tube rectifier for tight or loose "sag". It's noticeable and really cool. .

my Mark V has that .... you can set different channels to have the tube or solid state ..... it's absolutely noticeable.
Personally I've always preferred the tightness of a SS rectifier ... but I've recently started to try the 'sag' thing a bit .... still not sure whether I like it or not.
The Mark V also has a variac mode which gives a little different type of 'sag' ...... so far I don't care for it.

And maybe if the Debs' new job works out ...... their repair customers might get a good deal on one of their amps? Maybe get the inside scoop on a trade-in or demo?

 

[miroslav]

These guys have been working on my amps....

Steamboat Ampworks, Home.

They look cool, and some of the sound clips sounded nice....but where/how do they sell them?
There's no info on the website or any prices. Do they sell direct/online...or only local in their shop?

I see they have a 200W amp, the Steamroller........have you tried it out or any of the other models?

 

[Greg_L]

my Mark V has that .... you can set different channels to have the tube or solid state ..... it's absolutely noticeable.
Personally I've always preferred the tightness of a SS rectifier ... but I've recently started to try the 'sag' thing a bit .... still not sure whether I like it or not.
The Mark V also has a variac mode which gives a little different type of 'sag' ...... so far I don't care for it.

And maybe if the Debs' new job works out ...... their repair customers might get a good deal on one of their amps? Maybe get the inside scoop on a trade-in or demo?

Hah, maybe. I don't know. It don't hurt to ask.
I tend to like the SS rectifier too. More responsive to me when picking, but for my powerchords it don't really matter.

They look cool, and some of the sound clips sounded nice....but where/how do they sell them?
There's no info on the website or any prices. Do they sell direct/online...or only local in their shop?

They sell them direct I guess, and there are a few mom and pop shops around Texas that sell them. You can contact them through email or phone. They probably have a facebook page too. The info is on that website. I found them on Craigslist. They put a "vintage amp repair" ad up on there, and I'd heard of their amps, so I took one of mine in. Really nice guys and they do good work. I don't know, I'm a DIY guy and I hate paying anyone to do anything that I should be able to do myself, but I feel really at ease with these guys working on my amps. I'm just impressed with their whole operation.

I see they have a 200W amp, the Steamroller........have you tried it out or any of the other models?

I've dinked around through a few of their smaller heads. Never the Steamroller.

Most of their stuff is very very vintage inspired, vintage sounding. I think they'll custom build you anything you want, but their main gig is vintage crunch. The amp man there, Jake, gave me a little tour of a few of his models and cabs and we used a P-90 SG, and they all sounded pretty awesome to me. Lotta bite, lotta crunch, super cleans, but no high gain chugga chugga stuff. I think the "Classic 50" is their main "production" model, I'm not sure, but we spent a lot of time with one of those and it was really cool.

 

[saads]

Interesting thread. I only play guitar at home when I'm recording my own stuff, with the band I'm always on drums. At home, I do use GR, but I could never imagine using it exclusively. I love putting up a 57 on a combo tube amp (does that count? ), there's something very satisfying about the experience.
My question is: If sims are fine for recording at home (as most of the amp guys have said), why aren't they fine for live shows? If anything, shouldn't it be the other way around, considering the fact that a recording is subject to much more scrutiny than a live show? In other words, if sims don't sound as good as amps, shouldn't we be primarily be using amps for recording, and sims as a reasonable alternative for live shows?

 

[miroslav]

If sims are fine for recording at home (as most of the amp guys have said), why aren't they fine for live shows?

"Fine for recording" is rather subjective, and if you've read through most of the thread, I don't think there's any real consensus on the subject.
There's no measurement out there that can determine when sims are fine to use and when you need to plug into an amp.
Some folks use amps for both, and obviously, some have gone to sims for both.

I think AFA live, it was more about the playing feel from the amp VS sims, and the whole band image thing...do you like having them on stage or do you not care if the sound guy is running the whole show.
For recording, there are plenty of situations where sims are not fine, not at all....but when you're doing certain kinds of Metal/shred stuff, it appears that sims are becoming the norm for those kinds of homogenized, sanitized, processed and programmed tones, and/or it's mostly about convenience and no bones to get some decent amps, so I'll settle for what some programmer thinks is a good real tube amp tone.

 

[Greg_L]

My question is: If sims are fine for recording at home (as most of the amp guys have said), why aren't they fine for live shows?

For me it's because that's lame as fuck.

 

[saads]

I think AFA live, it was more about the playing feel from the amp VS sims, and the whole band image thing...do you like having them on stage or do you not care if the sound guy is running the whole show.

For me it's because that's lame as fuck.

So would you guys say that as far as a live performance is concerned, the difference in 'feel' and show is a bigger factor than the difference in sound itself?

 

[Lt. Bob]

for my gigs 'show' is irrelevant ..... I'm strictly about 'feel' .... I mostly use combos so they're hardly showy.
It's all about 'feel'.
The thing is that sims ... or in my case hardware sims or modelers ... they don't respond to dynamics nearly as well as an amp.

Even something like a Fractal or a Kemper, one of the things I read about over and over by those that use them is that you need a different patch for each volume level you want. With a tube amp I can just 'bear down' a bit harder with my picking to bring it out in the mix .... with a sim I have to switch to a slightly louder patch.

Once again I will stipulate that I have not personally used a Fractal but I've used a lot of modelers and ALL of the modelers I've ever used were that way and reports from users of the Fractal say it's the same way with them.
In fact Kemper says that you need to take impulses of each volume level you want available.

Which is easier ...... reaching to footswitch to the slightly louder preset for a fill and then back to the slightly softer one when you go back to strumming or just playing a bit harder and softer?

In the studio that's a non-issue since I would tweak the sound for each and every different part anyway so for studio work I often use a modeler but live it's a PIA so I try not to use them for gigging.
And since I gig 4 and 5 nights a week and record only occasionally I primarily use amps.

 

[miroslav]

So would you guys say that as far as a live performance is concerned, the difference in 'feel' and show is a bigger factor than the difference in sound itself?

I don't play out these days....but it wouldn't matter, it's about feel in the studio, and it's about feel playing live....as Lt. Bob said.
While that player<-->guitar<-->amp interaction is important, so is the sound, and that's the thing, feel from an amp leads to a certain kind of sound. You might dial in a decent sim sound, and it might work well in the mix and all that....but I don't find playing against a sim as rewarding and interesting "organically" as I get from an amp.

Some guys work that issue by playing through an amp in the studio for the feel, but also doing the DI track and then looking for a sim to apply to the DI track later on. I would just get too married to the amp tone to bother with a DI track. I mean, even if the amp was going to get used just for feel, I wouldn't pick some crappy tone that I wouldn't want to actually use in the song....so then I would pick the amp and the tone I was thinking of using....and at that point, what's the DI track for?
Yeah, some guys do it for "insurance"....and it's all the rage in the pro studios because of that. Being able to sit back with a committee and decide on amp tones...but I don't need all that silliness. Pick a tone, record it, move on.
I keep saying to myself that one of these days I have to use the reamp gear I have, just to use it, at least once....but it's not happened yet.

 

[Greg_L]

So would you guys say that as far as a live performance is concerned, the difference in 'feel' and show is a bigger factor than the difference in sound itself?

Its all a factor because real amps feel, look, AND sound better than sims.

 

[James K]

Its all a factor because real amps feel, look, AND sound better than sims.

And the feel has a big impact on the sound.