Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

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heatmiser said:
Anyway...whether you use virtual amps or real amps, I think it's more important that the perfomance be live, and in-the-moment...audiences can sense when it's too scripted and it feels wrong (depending on genre I guess?).
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Yeah, some of us agree and aparently some don't in this thread. It's one thing to have the technical details locked in so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every show, but another to play like a tape that's been rewound. The argument though has more to do with the technical side, which I don't think a generalization can be aptly formed.
 
Pinky said:
But miroslav was painting a generalization using the widest brush available, suggesting anyone who ever pre-plans their on stage sound is akin to musical sinners.
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That's pretty funny. :D

You're the one who went all broad-stroke here. I only related an anecdote that one guy told me. How in his band, they weren't allowed to have any on-stage amps, and everything had to go through the PA and be controlled by the sound guy. Where did I ever say or suggest that anyone who "pre-plans their on stage sound is akin to musical sinners"....???
Gigs are always planned out. It's not supposed to be an "improvisational jam session"..but planning out your gig options is not the same as not being allowed to use any amps on stage.

There are different degrees of "planning" and "control". If you want to look at a Broadway show....that shit is planned out down to the micro-detail if at all possible. There's way too many "moving parts" for it not to be.
However, for a basic band concert, it's NOT required. If you haven't noticed, that's why so many bands DON'T sound exactly like their recordings, which in this day and age of digital and MIDI, is easily attainable.
Sure, some bands take the Broadway route, and have every micro-detail controlled by someone or something....but again, all I'm saying it that it's lame and not required for a typical rock band to do.

You seem to imply that it's inevitable and must be micro-managed, otherwise they can't have any kind of conistancy....????
Well, in that case, they are not that good if they need that much programming to sound good....and as Lt. Bob said....it's also about the style of music. Some styles may need more programming, but it's not an absolute. I think you're confusing "practice" with "programming". :)
I watched some of the the "Marley" documentary last night...and I can tell you for sure, there was little "programming" and "micro-managing" of the whole show. They were just good musicians who could play well together.

If you get "Palladia" music TV.....all New Year's Day they will be showing the Guitar Crossroads concerts back-to-back from over the years. Check it out, see if you can spot the "programming". ;)
 
Chili said:
I pruned this thread a little. Let's keep it on topic.

Thanks.
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What did I miss?

I log in a little late today...and looks like the best post are gone! :D ;)
I see Ove is gone.....was it something he said? :laughings:
 
Greg, where did you find that band, Turbonegro? Those guys are a hoot! I laughed my ass off....while also covering it with both hands! LOL! I like their ever-popular song, I Got Erection! Talk about songwriting genius! LOL!:laughings:
 
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Greg_L said:
He went full gay anal sex. Seriously. It was weird.
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He seemed a little weird from the moment he joined.

There's a couple of other threads where he was posting over and over....basically, carrying on the thread conversation all on his own. At one point, I thought he was trying to spam his "DSP" stuff....'cuz he kept posting links to it and his blog.

I guess....he was really just looking for love....in the end. :D
 
Who was it that he said was looking for gay toilet sex? That was definitely a strange turn in the conversation! Although I really did enjoy the super sized dildo video! LOL!:spank:
 
He went off on me, aparently thinking my "Pinky" username was a pronouncement of my (non-existent) homosexuality. It was definitely humorous, but someone who was homosexual would NOT have been laughing at his tirade. There was a youtube video of a large (very large) dildo involved.

That's two people in one day (Lt Bob thinks I think he sucks).

Miroslav, once I have a moment to read your latest nonsense I'll be getting back to you. On second thought, two is enough for one day. I'll check in with you tomorrow. :D
 
Pinky said:
Miroslav, once I have a moment to read your latest nonsense I'll be getting back to you. On second thought, two is enough for one day. I'll check in with you tomorrow. :D
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Don't strain yourself..... :)
 
miroslav said:
You missed the point.

It was about giving up all the control to the soundguy....so that everything always sounded the same, every time, like it was some Broadway show. That may be "LIVE"...but it's also very "programmed".

From a guitar player's (or any player's) perspective....that's pretty lame......

....YMMMV.
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miroslav said:
That's pretty funny. :D

You're the one who went all broad-stroke here. I only related an anecdote that one guy told me. How in his band, they weren't allowed to have any on-stage amps, and everything had to go through the PA and be controlled by the sound guy. Where did I ever say or suggest that anyone who "pre-plans their on stage sound is akin to musical sinners"....???
Gigs are always planned out. It's not supposed to be an "improvisational jam session"..but planning out your gig options is not the same as not being allowed to use any amps on stage.

There are different degrees of "planning" and "control". If you want to look at a Broadway show....that shit is planned out down to the micro-detail if at all possible. There's way too many "moving parts" for it not to be.
However, for a basic band concert, it's NOT required. If you haven't noticed, that's why so many bands DON'T sound exactly like their recordings, which in this day and age of digital and MIDI, is easily attainable.
Sure, some bands take the Broadway route, and have every micro-detail controlled by someone or something....but again, all I'm saying it that it's lame and not required for a typical rock band to do.

You seem to imply that it's inevitable and must be micro-managed, otherwise they can't have any kind of conistancy....????
Well, in that case, they are not that good if they need that much programming to sound good....and as Lt. Bob said....it's also about the style of music. Some styles may need more programming, but it's not an absolute. I think you're confusing "practice" with "programming". :)
I watched some of the the "Marley" documentary last night...and I can tell you for sure, there was little "programming" and "micro-managing" of the whole show. They were just good musicians who could play well together.

If you get "Palladia" music TV.....all New Year's Day they will be showing the Guitar Crossroads concerts back-to-back from over the years. Check it out, see if you can spot the "programming". ;)
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I included both of the replies in question.

"From a guitar player's (or any player's) perspective....that's pretty lame..."

It's not lame, hence my objection to your posts. Also why I've asked a few times now about vocalists and drummers, who don't have any variables in their setup from night to night. Nor have you explained how having technical variants each night guarantees a better performance or experience for the listener. Instead all I'm really hearing is "I like and define live sound as I see fit, and nothing more." ;)

No need to guess all of my ("implied") thoughts on the subject, as I haven't posted them. We'll say I'm on the liberal end and don't have any prescribed notion as to what is the best formula for "live" recordings or performances. There isn't anything wrong with controlling every nuance if it sounds really good, nor is there anything wrong with plugging straight into a marshall stack with the volume at 11 if that sounds equally good. I'm not the one making a judgment call as to what sounds better or would sound better, so I'm not the one needing to 'splain myself. You're the one who put their neck out there. :)

I will say this (going back to the very first posts in this thread) - what someone needs for playing live, and what one can use (cost effectively) for recording at home, are very much two different things. No way in hell will I, in 2013 (almost 14), suggest to budding home musicians that they sink tons of money into amp and pedals. I've had gear, I know the differences. For me to say the old way is the only way would be negligent. I love how old gear sounds, but don't like the cost. This new tech does a very good job at a literal fraction. From this point in time forward these conversations are always going to be about cost versus benefits.
 
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It's lame.....and I don't need to guess your thoughts. :)

If as a player, you're not allowed to walk over to your amp (OMG! you have no amp, it's all in the PA) and make an adjsutment to your tone, by yourslef, based on whatever mood you are in on a given night.....
....that's pretty lame.

Of course...some guys may want that kind of lame. ;)
 
miroslav said:
It's lame.....and I don't need to guess your thoughts. :)

If as a player, you're not allowed to walk over to your amp (OMG! you have no amp, it's all in the PA) and make an adjsutment to your tone, by yourslef, based on whatever mood you are in on a given night.....
....that's pretty lame.

Of course...some guys may want that kind of lame. ;)
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You keep attacking that straw man. This thread is about virtual instrumentation versus, as it appears clear thus far, the old guard.
 
XploZiveToyz said:
Greg, where did you find that band, Turbonegro? Those guys are a hoot! I laughed my ass off....while also covering it with both hands! LOL! I like their ever-popular song, I Got Erection! Talk about songwriting genius! LOL!:laughings:
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I've been liking me some Turbonegro for a long time. They're fantastic.
 
Pinky said:
You keep attacking that straw man. This thread is about virtual instrumentation versus, as it appears clear thus far, the old guard.
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Wasn't this thread about virtual amps for live use? That's fucking lame as shit. I agree with miro on that one. You have yet to provide one valid argument that makes a sim better than a real amp in a live situation....besides cost. Okay, your 100 dollar PodXT costs less than a Mesa Dual-Rec. Congratulations. You're lame and cheap. Probably a little jealous too. And then occasionally people that haven't read the thread pop in go on about how great sims are for recording. I agree with that, but that wasn't the debate. Encouraging people to spend less and half-ass more is irresponsible IMO.

I play drums and guitar in different bands. I can tell you that both need to be tweaked for the room. Drums aren't the same every time like you claim them to be. Sometimes mid-set I'll reach for a moon-gel to fix a tom that might be too resonant that night. I'll tune the snare a little differently between songs or adjust the snare wires. Same as someone would turn up their presence or bass on an amp. These are things an experienced player can handle with real equipment and not miss a beat. What you're suggesting is that anyone, for little money and with little skill, can go out and play because most of the work is done for them already. That's lame.
 
I love me some amp sims for my apartment setting, but for live stuff i would absolutely rent a decent amp for the occasion. Why in the name of god would you take simulators on a stage. Maybe if you were skrillex or something or somebody whos bread and butter was entirely digital. But if we are talking about a virtual amplifier on a real life stage?? That's like paying a high class escort for a high five.
 
Pinky said:
You keep attacking that straw man. This thread is about virtual instrumentation versus, as it appears clear thus far, the old guard.
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I'm not really attacking anything, just pointing out the error of your perspective. :)
You're the one being very defensive about some inevitable need for less personal/ad-lib control of ones amp rig on stage, and that it's almost an absolute requirement for good/consistent live performances.
Hey....are you one of the guys from that band where no one was allowed to use a stage amp? :D

I say that's a lame way to approach a live performance as a player for the typical band gig. More elaborate productions and choreographed stuff does require more programming and control.

What's "straw man" about that?
 
Pinky said:
That's two people in one day (Lt Bob thinks I think he sucks).
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First off, since you quoted me and then responded to that quote, I don't think it was unreasonable to assume it was me you were talking to.

But I hardly went off on you ..... I very politely pointed out that something you had rightfully complained about others doing to you and your point of view, you were doing the same to me.

But I was definitely polite and simply made a valid point.
You're the one that seems to be defensive here ..... I actually have said several times that I think either approach is valid and have not said anything insulting about your preferred way of doing things.

If you feel some here have been insulting to you here I get that ..... but why not confine your snotty comments to them since I'm one of the ones here that has stood up for either way being valid even if it's not how I choose to work.
 
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It's the same few old farts arguing the same point over and over. We aint gettin' anywhere, gents!
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Lt Bob, I wasn't insulted by anything you posted. It wasn't rooted in the reality of the situation. It's called a misunderstanding. I certainly wasn't doing anything hypocritical that was aimed at anyone, I have no reason to belittle other musicians on this forum. You said yourself you don't even fit the example I used. Not sure why this persists. Where did I say you went off on me? I've long let it go, hopefully you'll at some point do the same (?). :)
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I've gone digital for my home recording needs (after 20 years of amp/pedal/rack gear use). I'm not here to convert anyone. It has been, and will continue to be, utilized by live performers as well. With greater frequency. It's okay if people don't want that to happen. It doesn't change its usefulness, and I certainly will continue to recommend people use it in whatever manner they see fit (live or otherwise). Old notions about what is or isn't appropriate gear for a situation will dissolve in time. People will earn to think for themselves and do what sounds good. And on that note...

And yes, the sims are getting good enough that for most purposes, you can't tell. I pity those who can, they're missing out (whether it's a real or perceived difference, who knows - I have some $50 monster cables to sell you too). I don't think blind tests have been performed yet, but I know with audiophile stuff those blind tests always show there's a heavy placebo effect.

Greg, I'm not sure how your response about drums applies. Are you getting up mid show repositioning Mics and readjusting gain/compression on the board? You're lame if you're not. Viva La Inconsistance!
 
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